Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option (page 3)

Oubliette

CIF: Why should I have any problem with them or either of you?

You shouldn't. Who said you did?

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

CalebInFloroda

I said that in reply to your own word, Oubliette:

But since you feel that way, you'll have no trouble understanding that I've examined "the data" (the Bible) and concluded it is an internally incoherent document filled with delusions and misperception....

Therefore I stated I have no problem understanding your position.

Sheesh, I hate this place. I feel like it's 1980-something and I've been dragged before the JW elders who are dissecting my words all over again. Forget I said anything.

Oubliette

CIF: Therefore I stated I have no problem understanding your position.

No. You said, "Why should I have any problem with them or either of you?"

Those are not the same thing.

One is a statement, the other a question. If you had actually made the statement you just wrote, I would have responded differently, probably thanking you.

But since you asked a question I felt I had to respond, especially because it implied a problem no one had raised.

CIF: Sheesh, I hate this place. I feel like it's 1980-something and I've been dragged before the JW elders who are dissecting my words all over again. Forget I said anything.

Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps if you choose your words with more clarity. Apparently you often write things in a way that don't mean what you intend.

EdenOne

Oubliette: It seems to me a fundamental dishonesty and a fundamental treachery to intellectual integrity to hold a belief because you think it's useful and not because you think it's true.

It may not make rational sense, of course. But you're not taking into account that belief is also a way that our brain has to cope with physical and mental pain. See this article.

Eden

GrreatTeacher

I have incomplete thoughts on this subject, but I find Caleb's entry into the discussion interesting.

I feel like I need to ask, "Is the bible a fundamentally Jewish or Christian document? Does the answer to that question affect our understanding, not only of individual events in bible, but the larger "message," for lack of a better word?

cofty

Perhaps I can refocus the thread.

My concern is specifically with christians who pretend it is possible to love Jesus "meek and mild" while eschewing the embarrassing god of the OT.

It can't be done without indulging in intellectual dishonesty. If you call yourself a christian you are obliged to approve of the things Jesus approved of.

"The God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ" was evil - Therefore Jesus of the gospels was not a good man.

Oubliette

GT: Is the bible a fundamentally Jewish or Christian document?

Jesus was a Jew.

You knew that, right?

Oubliette

EdenOne: It may not make rational sense, of course. But you're not taking into account that belief is also a way that our brain has to cope with physical and mental pain.

You aren't quoting me. You are re-quoting my quote of Bertrand Russell.

So it's Mr. Russell you have the disagreement with, not me!

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear that was all Bertrand.

GrreatTeacher

Cofty, sorry. I didn't mean to derail your thread. I definitely understand what you are saying.

I tend to get in trouble when I start thinking about others' thought processes on a subject, metacognition, if you will.

Christians, including JWs, seem to not see Jesus so much as a Jew who can be best understood through Jewish thought and more as the founder of the religion of Christianity and then retroactively apply their Christian understanding of him to the god Yahweh of the old testament. This seems especially easy to do with trinitarian thought that equates Jesus with the OT god.

I totally agree with you, Cofty, I'm just indulging in some attempts to understand what and how others understand the same subject. However, this usually is unproductive, at the least off topic, and so I apologize if I derailed the thread.

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

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