Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty 94 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    It's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the Jesus of the gospels to the god of the Old Testament.

    OT god is an embarrassment. I am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist. It's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.

    On the other hand, by cherry-picking verses from the NT, we can paint a picture of a Jesus who was wise, loving and merciful. It requires a wilful ignorance of a large amount of NT data but it is both possible and popular.

    It is also a dishonest venture.

    The god of the OT was "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

    Jesus prayed to his God and Father. He obeyed him, and taught his followers to do the same. He came to do the will of the god of the OT. Read the gospels and observe Jesus' unqualified adoration for the god who displayed such contempt for humanity.

    The savage god who demanded infanticide. The wicked god who endorsed slavery of the worse kind.

    This was "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Own him. You can't have one without the other.

  • Simon
    Simon

    "He seemed such a nice young man but then we met his family"

    Yeah, however nice Jesus may appear it's still the same family firm.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    Marcion did not like the god of the old testament and for centuries people worshiped Christ. Christ was the focus and the trinity teaching may have been used to help push Christ with out a falling back into worship of the old God. In the NT Christ becomes God, gets elevated becomes the alpha and omega.

    This goes with older religious beliefs as Marduk for example becomes God of God's king of Kings and they worshiped him over his father Ea in Babylon. Baal Hadad the fertility God gets elevated over the creator God El of the cannaanite pantheon, this was done in other cultures as well, Egypt, Sumerian etc.

  • stuckinarut2
    stuckinarut2

    Yes indeed Cofty!

    Great thread. Great observations!

    Cherry picking the bible makes no sense!!

    Although slightly off topic, check out this thought-provoking video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjhFlI6-ZBI&list=RDQjhFlI6-ZBI#t=454

  • FayeDunaway
    FayeDunaway

    I will own up to this and admit that I have always had issues with YHWH, used to read David's scripture of (paraphrasing here) how he wished to delight in slamming the heads of his enemies' children against the rocky crag, etc. etc. with absolute disgust...how can we teach this is a God of love, who endorses or often causes these things? How can we praise him for his love but not acknowledge his hatred or neglect too? At a church retreat we were asked to write a poem about God, and mine was filled with questioning his justice, it was right after the Tsunami in Japan. I read it aloud and people loved it, that I was so honest, and many said they also have the same questions.

    Cofty I DO have issues with him. I do not however think it's bad to question him and demand justice, Abraham did this, and Job if I recall correctly. I even have a few small issues with Jesus. I am not a fundamentalist or complete Bible literalist so that helps.

    It's kind of like marriage. I have issues with my husband too. And I have my own issues that make staying married a challenge. It's worth it to work through them to stay married.

  • sparrowdown
    sparrowdown

    Indeed. One of the biggest dilemmas I faced as a "Christian" -how to reconcile the OT and Jesus?

    The answer, of course - you can't, they're a package deal.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thank you for your honest reply Faye.

    Don't you think the behaviour and attitudes of "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" goes a bit beyond having "issues"?

    You say it's kind of like marriage. If your husband was responsible for genocide, kidnap, rape, slavery and the murder of thousands of babies would you think it was still worth working through the issues to stay married?

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Cofty: The savage god who demanded infanticide. The wicked god who endorsed slavery of the worse kind.

    You left out his many instances of genocide. ... Oh, I see you got to that in your reply to Faye!

    Simon: "He seemed such a nice young man but then we met his family"

    That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragically true in this case.

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    Actually it may be worse than what any of you are thinking.

    Critical research suggests that the Jews attributed their own savage warfare and acts to their gods which, under the Davidic dynasty, were condensed into the state religion of the cult of YHWH. When they were victorious, whatever the means, the Jews attributed this to God. When they lost, similar horrific acts performed by their enemies but now upon them were also attributed to YHWH but as punishment. Whatever the violence, who ever performed it, the Jews attributed it to God.

    Theology changed after the Babylonian exile, recognizing human independence and responsibility for their own actions, but the traditions were hard to change (and most weren't). The result is that the construction of the Tanakh would see a mixed theology as redactors attempted to balance past tradition of attributing all things, good and evil, to a God who controls all and reconciling it with a more ambiguous theology of the all-controlling God who permits things such as the evils of war.

    The unfortunate invention of literal interpretation or fundamentalism in both Christian and Jewish movements has led some modern theists to a form of Marcionism in which all events in Scripture must be explained as something far different from the patchwork of generations of writers and editors or rejected.

    The fundamentalist Christian movements in particular have even colored descriptions of Jesus as if he did not possess qualities which do not reconcile with their simplistic theology. Jesus on more than one occasion forbids and forgoes serving Gentiles, once referring to a Gentile woman and her people as "dogs" in order to see if she will accept her "place" in society in exchange for Jesus saving her daughter. At other times Jesus acts as if he does not know what his actions may be implying, such as when he asks his disciples where the crowd will get its food (though he knows well he is going to feed them miraculously) or when he walks on water and pretends as if he plans to walk past the apostles who in a nearby boat are screaming in terror because they believe they are witnessing an apparition. And he constantly berates the Pharisees even though, because of his belief in the resurrection and the written works rejected by the Sadducees, is likely one of their number.

    It appears as if there is a great fear on behalf of the religious to look at Scripture with open eyes and attempt to draw from it on its own merits instead of explaining away difficult to reconcile parts by the "wearing of rose-colored glasses." Scripture is not as bad as the bad interpretations which make it out to be, and these "peculiarities" of Scripture may mean something far more different than many realize.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    CalebInFlorida: Actually it may be worse than what any of you are thinking.

    That sounds ominous. And then this sounds interesting, suggesting a detailed analysis or some thoughtful commentary:

    CalebInFlorida: Critical research suggests that the Jews attributed their own savage warfare and acts to their gods which, under the Davidic dynasty, were condensed into the state religion of the cult of YHWH.

    You drew me in, but then you wrote this incomprehensible mess of a sentence:

    CalebInFlorida: Scripture is not as bad as the bad interpretations which make it out to be, and these "peculiarities" of Scripture may mean something far more different than many realize.

    And completely lost me.

    Seriously: what were you trying to say?!?

    That last sentence made absolutely no sense at all. None whatsoever.

    -

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