Would anyone ever truly trust a full blown alcoholic to truly stop?

by life is to short 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • life is to short
    life is to short

    Would anyone ever truly trust a full blown alcoholic who say has killed someone while driving drunk to live and be alone with alcohol? It sounds crazy to even think of leaving an alcoholic who truly has a problem alone with open bottles of booze. To trust them not to be tempted to drink.

    Why then is it so hard to understand that child molesters should not be alone with kids.

    I know in every hall I have been in including while I was at Bethel we had alcoholic's in them. It was talked about who they were, some were even elders and I was told not to serve alcohol when I had them over for dinner. Yet no one is allowed to know who a child molester is this religion. How totally crazy is that?

    Why the difference? A child molester kills a child's soul and destroys their live forever, it is all hidden no one see their pain. The child is told to forget about it and just move on with their live. If that same child had been hurt by a drunk driver everyone would feel so sorry for their pain.

    I guess I just do not understand it.

    LITS

  • finally awake
    finally awake

    I think that's a really good analogy. Both things are compulsions that are very hard to resist. The only difference is that alcohol is socially acceptable to a point, while pedophilia isn't (which is good). But a person who sees children as sexually attractive has little chance of changing, especially when there are kids everywhere.

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Hey LITS!

    Sounds like a valid comparison.

    I understand both to be forms of addiction rooted in a human spirit requiring healing. I imagine the level of risk remaining after healing depends on the degree of healing attainable, or actually attained.

    Indeed, why allow the person to be without any safeguards and exposed to temptation ?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Full blown alcoholics achieve sobriety. It is very hard but they do. Frankly, pedophilia boggles me. Everyone has sex drives but most people channel it in socially acceptable ways. I can even understand some brain or genetic disorder causing attraction to children. The part that confuses me is why they do not seek medication or aversion therapy voluntarily. The recidivism rate is through the roof. I believe it is much higher than alcholic relapse rates.

    I've never read a good description of the drive to commit prob. one of the worst crimes in humanity.

    There is masturbation. I wonder if the impulse center of the brain is also affected. Perhaps one day medicine will find a cause and cure. Many people murder in a rage. It must be horrendous to be sexually attracted to children but we all have our afflictions. I see NO excuse for it.

    Has anyone read about the impulse control in these people? I must note that models are ever younger. Watch Toddlers and Tiaras and tell me why that is permissible. It is not innocent, IMO. Consider Nabokov's Lolita.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I was married to a full-blown alcoholic. It got him into all kinds of trouble before we met. He never drank while we were together. But he was always my designated driver, and would take me out drinking. We'd have alcohol in the house, and he never gave it a second thought. Both of my brothers no longer drink, and they have no problem being around alcohol or having it in the house. When the one takes us out to dinner, he buys everyone drinks. When an alcoholic takes responsibility for his sobriety, he no longer needs to be babysat.

    I have known others that didn't trust themselves around alcohol, but most reach a point where they are not so affected.

    Pedophilia is something different. We don't understand it thouroughly, but I don't consider it an addiction. Alcoholics sober up everyday, pedophiles never seem to get better. I would trust an alcoholic with a room full of the finest whiskey, all alone, all night, if they were committed to their sobriety, before I would trust a pedophile to be within 3 feet of a child---EVER. Even after therapy. Even after committing to being better. I could never bring myself to trust them as I trust can trust a sober alcoholic.

    NC

  • life is to short
    life is to short

    I agree NewChapter about never trusting an child molester around children PERIOD!

    My point is that in the JW religion elders are on the look out for alcoholic's ready to pounce on them if they do something wrong but not so with pedophiles. I had one elder tell me it is worldly wisdom to say that only 5 percent of pedophiles stop and that 95 percent will go on to molest a child given the chance. This elder threatened me with DF'ing if I told any parents in the hall that we had three child molesters. Yet everyone knew that two of the most prominent elders in my city are 'recovered alcoholic's.

    It just makes me so mad. I was molested I know the pain, it never leaves a person. Someone who is molested just cannot forget about it and move on as I was told to do just yesterday. I was so mad I wanted to say 'really I had never thought about doing that before! If only it was so simple.

    Child molesters kill the soul of a child, they are a shell of who they could have been and to not inform parents of child molesters in a hall should be criminal.

    LITS

  • OldGenerationDude
    OldGenerationDude

    NewChapter and FinallyAwake seem to hit the nail on the head. Having had a father who had an addictive personality (alcohol was his self-medicating tonic of choice, so I very much understand from a childhood with an alcoholic dad what NewChapter is talking about) and a family member who had a problem with a medication taken for restless leg syndrome, FinallyAwake's mention of "compulsion" seems to sum up the problem in full.

    The desire to do something, the temptation to do something, and the compulsion to do something are all separate. There's a big difference between all of these things, but when mixed together they can create a highly destructive situation.

    To illustrate: It's generally not considered immoral or wrong to drink alcohol or even to get drunk by many, but it is considered wrong to get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle when under the influence of alcohol. The first is generally not considered a criminal act, but the second is in many lands. Drinking alcohol and driving are not related or connected in any manner. But the two situations should never be mixed because they can and have had deadly consequences.

    Now getting from A (drinking) to B (driving while under the influence) isn't what I'm actually focusing on. And the combination of these isn't what those who consider themselves recovering alcoholics generally concentrate all their efforts on preventing. It's the preventing the situation altogether by avoiding the temptations that can lead to point A, namely drinking alcohol.

    Temptation itself isn't immoral, even in religious circles. A person can be "tempted" to eat something delicious and nutritious. Nothing's wrong with that. But if the temptation leads to something harmful, such as eating a food that can cause a problem for a diabetic, then the temptation takes on a whole different dimension.

    Still temptation and desire don't mean a thing in themselves. We live with such a push and pull situation daily, regarding things we consider helpful or not, good or bad, safe or dangerous, etc. But add compulsion to the mix and we might as well forget about restraint and self-control.

    My family member who was taking a medication (ropinerole) for restless leg syndrome (or RLS) had to discontinue the drug. Why? Ropinerole was actually formulated to aid persons with Parkinson's syndrome. It's very effective because it "fools" the brain into thinking it has efficient levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter essential to physical and emotional functioning which is at low to practically non-existent levels in the brain of a person with Parkinson's.

    The problem for people with RLS when they take ropinerole is that they do not have the brain of a person with Parkinson's syndrome, a brain that produces little or no dopamine. Besides allowing for smooth motor skill functioning, dopamine is central to emotion, especially the pleasure and positive (known as "reward" in medical terms) response.

    Adding ropinerole to the brain of a person with Parkinson's can create some problems with compulsion control--a lot of which can be controlled by either dosage or the addition of other medications used to treat the disease. Adding ropinerole to the brain of a person with RLS but otherwise completely healthy can cause great problems. In our case it meant dealing with a family member who could not get off the computer and could (and would) spend their hard-earned money on website shopping sprees in a matter of minutes. Others taking the drug for RLS (it is generally not prescribed for this "condition," due to this problem and controversy surrounded the drug and the promotion of RLS as a "typical" condition) had compulsions dealing with gambling and sex. But once the drug was stopped, so did the compulsive actions. We don't have to worry about anyone in the family shopping on the Internet, traveling to Las Vegas or living out a fulfilling sex life.

    We're talking more than a mere desire to do something acceptable like shopping, having sex, and even having some fun at a casino. These molesters have a desire for something totally unacceptable. Placing them in any situation that be tempting for them is bad enough, but what makes the difference between the molester, the drug addict, the alcoholic and others is that they have to either stop themselves or be prevented by others from being in a situation that will only get worse once compulsion takes over. It takes a problem with compulsion to do these things and be an addict or a molester of children.

    This doesn't excuse the addict or molester either. As many recovering alcoholics can attest a person who knows they have a problem with desire, temptation and compulsion can prevent themselves from being in a situation that can turn ugly once compulsion takes over. Recovering alcoholics don't trust themselves to be in certain situations or around certain people. Why not? Because once compulsion takes over, the ability to reason and stop oneself are not available.

    We learned this from our family's experience with ropinerole (yes, one person was taking it but the compulsion problems affected all of us). Once the reward impulses in the brain get activated, they are programmed to continue whatever actions the person was doing to activate the reward impulses in the first place until the process of reward reception is satisfied or completed. During this time the abilities to reason and stop are basically deactivated. This is why drug addicts will risk life, limb, family and anything else to get their fix. They can't help themselves because these parts of the brain aren't active during the process.

    While the situation is very different for a person with Parkinson's syndrome, ropinerole is obviously not the best thing for an otherwise healthy person to take. Because of the risks involved it just didn't make sense to give it to someone in our family for something as comparatively simple as RLS. It was easier to find other ways of treatment and to do away with the element that caused the compulsive behavior.

    You have to do the same for the problem with child molesters. You have keep them away from the "drug," so to speak. It's more than an issue of "can I forgive and then trust them to be in the same situation again?" Just because a person sues the maker of ropinerole (and some have) for advertising it to be used for RLS (which it wasn't designed for in the first place) and then gets a settlement from the company doesn't change the fact that you can't give the average person ropinerole without having problems with compulsion. Forgiving and then popping those pills will cause the problems to start all over again.

    This is not a matter of trust or forgiveness. It's about what you can't let happen again. Ropinerole doesn't change its chemical makeup because you suddenly decide to trust it. It will have the same effect every time. Sure, it may not cause a person with Parkinson's to have the same problems with compulsion control, but that's because they don't have normal levels of dopamine in their brains to begin with (ropinerole acts as an agonist on dopamine created by the brain or introduced via L-DOPA). We're not talking about dealing with people with lower-than-normal levels of dopamine here.

    And we are not talking about your average person here either. We're talking about child molesters--adults who prey on children in a sexual manner and repeat the offense despite the consequences. Granting them "forgiveness" and then turning around and trusting them to be with children again is illogical. The abuse will happen again. The molester is not likely to gain the control that no human has in the face of the compulsion process. So it all boils down to what we can't allow to happen again.

    The elders in every congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses around the world are not allowed to go left or right of the direction given them by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses in the matter of handling cases involving child molesters. To direct otherwise would be considered heresy, as would to go against the Governing Body be considered rebellion and apostasy by the Jehovah's Witnesses. The direction from the Governing Body may even be considered worse than what happened in the Roman Catholic Church because it was not policy or doctrine of the Catholic Church to shuffle offending priests from congregation to congregation.* On the other hand it is the policy of the religion of the Governing Body to follow the directions provided to them of "forgiving" molesters and letting them back out to "serve" the congregations they prey upon. And it is a matter of allegiance to religious doctrine that this policy be followed by the body of elders, for rejecting such direction is considered to be rejecting the one and only 'mouthpiece of God,' namely the Governing Body.

    *--In fact many in the Catholic Church are angry that doctrine was not followed and feel it is not being followed again when the Church uses the funds provided by the lay people--those who neither participated in or approve of and were even victimized directly by the scandal itself--to pay the deserving damages to the victims (shouldn't the criminal members of the clergy be forced to provide restitution to lay persons who have had their parishes closed due to bankruptcy, which essentially makes the Church-at-large second-hand victims of these criminals?). Of course many of us may have our own personal views of Catholicism which might not be considered as holding that religion and its doctrine in the highest esteem, but I can't help but steam over the fact that even in this way those stomach-turning pedophiles in that religion get to go scot-free when they should at least be made to pay back the money the lay persons had to dish out for complaints they raised about their own children who were victimized in the first place. The real "Church" is made up of those people, many of which were the actual victims of these crimes, and this is essentially making the victims pay themselves. I sure hope someone not only stops this from happening, but doesn't allow the Governing Body and other reprehensible parties in the Jehovah's Witnesses to get off as easily when they have to give deserving restitution to the victims. In my opinion--which I try to stay away from giving, but what the hell--I think they should be put in some place with the criminal clergy members and all of them be made to work it all off to give the money back to their people since they used their donations to give the deserving victims what they needed (and which cannot really be cared for merely funds). Until then, all of those bast**ds are also thieves who stole from the "collection plate." They need to pay for this as well.--But enough of standing on my soapbox....

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