(please pardon my English quotes from the bible. I'm trying to translate from Swahili, i cant find my English bible lol). So i had my bible study yesterday and my teacher came with an elder. I had previously asked her if the anointed ones all over the world communicate.......so the elder showed me Acts 15. Here we see brothers from Judea teaching congs that circumcission is necessary for salvation. But Paul n Barnabas disagreed. So they decided to go to Jerusalem to 'the apostles n old men' to ask about the teaching. After 'discussing' the issue, they 'decided' as seen on verse 19 n 20 ''i've decided to not trouble thoz turning to God; but to write them to abstain from things polutted by idols, fornication, things trungled and blood''.............. After that, they chose men, wrote a letter for them to send to 'congregations'. Part of the letter said, 'the holy spirit together with us'....then they said what they had decided..............and at vers 30 n 31, after the chsen men read the letter to the multitude, 'they rejoiced upon the encouragement'............. so the elder that came to me said 'the anointed all over the world dont communicate. but they all await for the faithful slave i.e the governing body, just like there were apostles n old men. see all the firsr century christians were the anointed but still they went to the apostles and old men for 'guidance'. And did u see their response? They rejoiced to the encouragement'........ so i asked the elder, 'were those orders or suggestions?' the elder said they were 'instructions'. And insisted 'the brothers rejoiced over it'.......i was like 'no further Qs ur honour'. So y do people say the GB is 'totalitarian'? The 1st century christians did the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what do u think of ACTS 15?
by xtreemlyconfused17 9 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tornapart
If you look at Acts 15 carefully it tells us it was more than just the apostles and older men.. v4 they were received by the congregation.. v12 the entire multitude became silent..v22 the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation..
the problem that had arisen was in Antioch, Syria where Paul had his base as missionary. The Christian Jews there were expecting Gentile Jews to be circumcised, which was why ALL the brothers wanted to get together to sort it out. Of course not all the brothers in Antioch could go so Paul and Silas were sent out as representatives. The answer given was so that 'we add no further burden to you except these (4) necessary things'.
How many times did Paul get direction from Jerusalem? Take a look at Galatians 1:17-20; 2:1...straight after his conversion to christianity he didn't go to Jerusalem at all! It was 3 years before he visited staying with Peter for just 15 days, during that time he only saw James.. none of the other apostles! After that it was another 14 years till he visited again!
He was directed by the Holy Spirit, not by a governing body (this word does not occur in the scriptures, also if you notice the wording in the publications, in the 1stC it is called 'governing body' in modern times it is called 'Governing Body')...Acts 16:9.10.
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wasblind
Look for key words,
Holy Spirit
Keep in mind how powerful the Holy spirit is, it comes from a perfect infallible source
it can make imperfect men teach perfect things, like the apostles , who never had to
change anything they taught
Now lets see what "this" holy spirit did not cause the GB to do
" Jehovah's witnesses.......have made mistakes."
" It is true that the Jehovah witnesses have made mistakes at the end of certain time periods."
---------------Reasoning book page 136
" Jehovah witnesses.....look to the governing body of that "slave class " to resolve difficult questions
not on the basis of human wisdom." ---------------Reasoning book page 205
" WHY HAVE THERE BEEN CHANGES OVER THE YEARS IN THE TEACHINGS
OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ???
The Bible shows that Jehovah enables his servants to understand his purpose in a progressive manner."
--------------Reasoning book page 205
Even though the apostles may not have understood everything that
they taught the bible does not show where they had to change anything
because they were directed by the holy spirit, and infallible source
from a perfect source
There is a spirit leadin' GB but it ain't holy
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Ding
For some reason, when this thread was first posted, I couldn't find a window to reply so I started my own Acts 15 thread to reply. I won't paste it all in here. Please look for that thread if you're interested in my response.
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Fernando
Actually there was a Governing Body in the first century - it was called the Sanhedrin.
There was however no Governing Body amongst the early followers of Jesus who were directed by Holy Spirit instead.
It also seems to me that in this instance and in the matter of circumcision Jerusalem was the problem not the solution. They needed readjustment from Paul and the Holy Spirit.
(Galatians 2:11-14) . . .However, when Ce′phas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Bar′na·bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ce′phas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”
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flipper
XTREMELYCONFUSED- Yes, your intuition and instincts are correct. The GB IS totalitarian. WT society is run by a dictatorship. I stringly suggest reading Ray Franz's book " Crisis of Conscience " - it explains what REALLY goes on behind the scenes at Bethel with the WT society leaders. Don't tell the elder you are reading it though- they will just say it's " apostate " to you and discourage you from reading it. And why ? Because they are instructed by the WT society to tell you this so you won't know the REAL truth about the WT skeletons in the closet. Just being upfront and straight with you. Keep researching and finding your answers everywhere ! Internet included ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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Hoffnung
Hi XTREMELYCONFUSED,
Just posted this in another related thread from Ding, some points you might want to show the person you study with.
Some supporting details from Acts 15. If we would suppose Paul went to see the Governing Body of the that time, let us see who was part of that comite, and the ideas they fostered. Acts 15:5 reads: "Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”
So the socalled Governing Body had Pharisees amongst them that clearly propagated sectarian ideas...
Now maybe some smart cookie says: they were part of the congregation but not of the Governing Body, as the meeting started only in verse 6. Well, let us read what happened in that meeting, verse 6 reads: "And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place..."
Clearly quite a big part of the apostles and older men had the same ideas as the Pharisees, otherwise there would not be such a dispute.
Do you like the idea to be part of an organization that is led by Pharisees from the very beginnings? If you don`t like the idea, maybe Acts 15 is not a great support for the Governing Body concept.
Just my 0,02$
Hoffnung
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just Ron
Here is the one ding started a lot of good post
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/221492/1/Regarding-Acts-15-and-a-Governing-Body
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Doug Mason
When you read Paul's account of his meeting with the Jerusalem leadership, you get a very different picture to that which is given in Acts.
Paul, who was based at Antioch, had little regard for those Judaising persons. He reported that all he was told at the meeting was to care for the poor. Further, his attitude towards food was completely at odds to the position taken in the report in Acts.
How can Paul's report be so totally different to the Acts account? It's very simple really. The book Acts of the Apostles (there was a number of writings called Acts) was the creation of a writer who lived some 40 years after Paul died, and is generally recognised as religious fiction. Its accounts of Paul's travels, for example, do not accord with Paul's record. Several supposedly historical events are incorrect.
In Acts, the writer told stories of how he thought things should have been, rather than what actually happened.
There was a deep division between the Pauline party based at Antioch and the Petrine party based at Jerusalem (see "Crisis of Conscience" -- I cannot remember the page number). (The reference from Galatians by Fernando provides a great insight into that sharp division.) So read Acts keeping in mind the internal politics at the time and the points each group was trying to make.
Doug