did one know that only 144K were only chosen BACK THEN? It would seem that EVERYONE took of the emblems in the first, second, + centurys. Yet, 2000 years later the WTS puts a limit on the partakers? Why?
if the Gospels and Revelation were written at different times then how...
by sinis 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Band on the Run
Only baptized members could participate in Eucharist. Strangers were welcome for the sermon. The sad thing is that from a normal eucharisitc practice, the secrecy led to members of the public believing that Christians practice cannibalism and committed incest. Many years ago I read a tome on Revelation. John was writing of contemporary persecution to Christians, not future persecution. 144,000 was a code word. People at the time most likely knew what 144,000 meant. I doubt it was literal.
JWs does not work at all if you know some history of the period. Without the first century, 144,000 would have partaked of the Eucharist. Martyrs were numerous.
My ggf became involved in Russell's day. My gm felt she could only be part of the great crowd b/c only his generation was considered remnant. Eyeballs would pop out if a relatively young person said they were anointed. Sometime in the 1960s our weird overseer announced he was annointed. We did not like him and loved the idea of a Bethel dressing down. Other people from the cong. wrote for clarification. To shock, Bethel announced it was a personal matter. The Russell crowd died off a very long time ago. I heard you could get kicked out of heaven. Salvation is never final.
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Listener
There are a few reasons why the GB hold to the idea that the number is literal. I was just thinking why are they so stuck on this idea and came up with this -
If the number of anointed was greater than 144,000 that would then make them A GREAT CROWD and they couldn't have their members thinking that.
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AGuest
2000 years later the WTS puts a limit on the partakers? Why?
Christ himself explains, dear Sinis (peace to you!). Flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens (the spirit realm); however, those in union with Christ can and will. As "New Jerusalem," the Bride of Christ. Only those who partake are "in union" with Christ (i.e., part of his Bride). If they can convince people that they are NOT part of that Bride, they can keep them OUT of the kingdom. They do that convincing by creating a division between the "great crowd" and "144,000," with the latter partaking and the former not (although BOTH are seen standing before the throne).
If they can convince some that they are not of the "class" that partakes, so as to prevent such ones FROM partaking... they prevent the "union" that would get them IN. And so, in essence, they:
"... shut UP the kingdom of the heavens before men... because they themselves are not going in, neither do they allow those on THEIR way in... to go in." Matthew 23:13
They (1) stand in the way of the DOOR... Christ... and a union WITH Christ, which (2) prevents these (who believe themselves "unworthy" of partaking and so part of the "great crowd") from entering THROUGH him. He is not even their mediator, let alone the "way" for these!
WHY do they do this? We can speculate all day long on as to why on an individual level, but as a group and institution, they do so because they are following the leadings of THEIR "father"... he that is the father of the lie. They are doing HIS "will": basically compelling people to turn away from, reject, deny, and pass by... LIFE. Christ, the Life. He that is the TRUE Vine, the Root of Jesse... Sprout!... and the Tree of Life... whose flesh, the "LEAVES" of that Tree... are for the CURING of the nations (great crowd).
They cannot BE cured, however, if they don't EAT from the Tree. And the WTBTS is doing all that it can to make sure they don't.
I hope this helps, dear one, and again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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Larsinger58
The 144,000 master the "song of Moses" and also are specifically 12,000 from each tribe. isa 6:13 describes Israel as a tree that is chopped down due to disobedience, with only a remnant left, the root, a royal stump to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. That stump, though, is likened to 1/10th of the entire tree.
So if, indeed, the 144,000 just represent the root or royal stump, then the total number chosen to be king-priests would be 10X 144K = 1,440,000.
But one then asks how would you literally seal 144,000, 12K from each tribe if the 12 tribes of israel don't exist any more? The answer is that the 12 tribes have to be reborn again. How? Well, just as it took only one individual to start the 12 tribes, only one individual from the 12 tribes need recreate the 12 tribes in modern times. So Christ chose at least one person from each tribe with their genealogy records to prove it to live down to our times and then marry into the modern population so that by 1992 (the second coming) enough Israelites from all 12 tribes would be alive in order to select 12,000 from each tribe.
Did the early Christians know such details? Well, certainly those chosen to survive down to the Lord's day would.
Tje Bob;e says. tje "little one will become a nation and the small one a 1000" and that God would speed it up in its own time, meaning it would take a shorter time than usual. In other words, if each generation produced 5 children each it would take so long before a million descendants would be reached. But if the first couple of generations produced an average of 15 chlidren, it would take a third of that time to reach a million, etc. My grandmother came from a family of 17, my father from a family of 10, and I have one aunt who had 18 children.
Then, again, polygamy has never been condemned in the Bible and in some countries polygamy is legal. So if just one man from each tribe had 5 or six wives each, each of whom produced say 10 children each, you'd have 100 descendants in the next generation. If each of the girls produced 10 children each in the next generation and each male married 10 wives who produced 10 children, then you can see how quickly each tribe could grow in just a short while.
Anyway, the total number is 1,440,000 and the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is a literal number, with a literal 12,000 from each tribe, made possible by those who could identify their tribe legally during Jesus' time.
Now this will affect no one and doesn't have to be known specifically by anyone to be fulfilled. This is why Jesus says he puts "new wine" in new wineskins and does not put that "new wine" into "old wineskins", because it is just too hard to believe and too distracting and not necessary to believe at this point in time. After Armageddon, all the chosen can get updated onto the same page.
I'm just explaining what the scripture means for those with the spiritual capacity to grasp and recognize the true interpretation.
LS
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AGuest
Greetings, dear Larry... and peace to you! Forgive me: I usually don't encroach on your posts but I must here, because you state a few things that cannot be accurate. So, I would like to address them, if I may - thank you!
The 144,000 master the "song of Moses" and also are specifically 12,000 from each tribe. isa 6:13 describes Israel as a tree that is chopped down due to disobedience, with only a remnant left, the root, a royal stump to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. That stump, though, is likened to 1/10th of the entire tree.
Not quite. 12,000 from each tribe excluding Dan. Joseph receives Dan's share, so that he (Joseph) receives a "double" share (Manesseh, representing one son, and Joseph, representing Ephraim, the other son).
So if, indeed, the 144,000 just represent the root or royal stump, then the total number chosen to be king-priests would be 10X 144K = 1,440,000.
Two errors here, dear one. First, the 144,000 don't represent the root or royal stump. Christ is that Root (of Jesse) and Royal Stump... Sprout! He is the True Vine - Israel was the branches... which branched were "lopped off". Second, NO man is able to number the kings and priests. You seem to have bought into the WTBTS false teaching that the kings and priests are limited to the 144,000; however, the "great crowd" (which NO man is able to number) make up that royal priesthood, as well. They are those "from among the nations" who take the PLACE of unfaithful Israel. The "royal nation and people for a special possession" was SUPPOSED to be made up only of Israel; however, Israel stumbled over the cornerstone, Christ, and as a result the nations were called in to replace them. This is shown by the following:
"After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;" Revelation 7:9
Their "robes" are "white" because...
"they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;" Revelation 7:14, 15
Can anyone OTHER than priests "render SACRED service... IN [God's] temple"? Absolutely not. But nothing says these are kings and priests... does it? Something does:
"... the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” Revelation 5:9, 10
So, let's recap:
Root/Royal Stump = Christ
144,000 = 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, except Dan (w/Joe getting double share)
Great Crowd = people from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people, who... with the 144,000... make up the "holy nation" and "royal priesthood" to JAH
Which is summarized in my Lord's words that, "I have OTHER sheep, NOT of this fold... those ALSO I must bring... they will become ONE flock..." John 10:16
But one then asks how would you literally seal 144,000, 12K from each tribe if the 12 tribes of israel don't exist any more? The answer is that the 12 tribes have to be reborn again. How?
Another error, dear one. While the 12 tribes may not be KNOWN to US, mankind... they are not non-existent to the Most Holy One of Israel. The blood SPEAKS, dear one... and He knows where Abraham's blood is in the earth. He has always known. They were "lost" to HIM... but He will find them... all. None, however, are "reborn", though... until they are born... AGAIN... in the SPIRIT (given their "white robes", the spirit body).
Well, just as it took only one individual to start the 12 tribes, only one individual from the 12 tribes need recreate the 12 tribes in modern times. So Christ chose at least one person from each tribe with their genealogy records to prove it to live down to our times and then marry into the modern population so that by 1992 (the second coming) enough Israelites from all 12 tribes would be alive in order to select 12,000 from each tribe.
Ummmm... Lar? None of the true genealogical records exist. The first were destroyed when the temple... where such records were kept... was first destroyed. The rest were destroyed in the second destruction. There was a reason for this, indeed, this was the REASON the Most Holy One of Israel ALLOWED the temple to BE destroyed: to destroy such records. Why? First, because the records can be... and were... tampered with, altered, and falsified. One is not a Jew/Israelite because some PAPER says so, though; one is a Jew/Israelite... because of BLOOD. MANY joined themselves to Israel... and got circumcised (as an outward sign of their descendency from Abraham). Many of these also reported to the temple census and were LISTED as "Israel"... although in BLOOD, they were not. While they are acceptable to God... as having taken on the GOD of Israel, they are not included in the 144,000 - those are direct blood descendants of Abraham, through Isaac, though Jacob (Israel).
Second, it is the blood that SPEAKS... and so the Most Holy One of Israel KNOWS who Abraham's seed is... and where such ones are in the earth at any given time. HE... does not need written records to identify that seed.
Did the early Christians know such details? Well, certainly those chosen to survive down to the Lord's day would.
Those who knew knew by ONE means: holy spirit. BLOOD. God's blood... which was in Abraham... which came to THEM through and from Christ... so as to "quicken" their spirits. HIS blood (spirit) bore witness with THEIR blood (spirit)... and does so for Abraham's seed today.
Tje Bob;e says. tje "little one will become a nation and the small one a 1000" and that God would speed it up in its own time, meaning it would take a shorter time than usual. In other words, if each generation produced 5 children each it would take so long before a million descendants would be reached. But if the first couple of generations produced an average of 15 chlidren, it would take a third of that time to reach a million, etc. My grandmother came from a family of 17, my father from a family of 10, and I have one aunt who had 18 children.
And the Duggars have 19 children. So what? Jacob had 12 sons. How many, though, did Isaac have? Abraham (by Sarah)? Numbers mean nothing. It is NOT by man's numbers, dear one... but by JAH's love... and mercy.
Then, again, polygamy has never been condemned in the Bible and in some countries polygamy is legal.
Au contrare: while it was allowed, yes, my Lord bore witness to the TRUTH: it was an accomodation, but not the "way" from the beginning... or the way for those who belonged to him. Those who had more than one wife (i.e., had divorced one who was still living on grounds other than adultery/fornication and taken another, so that now such one had TWO living wives), while not entirely rejected... were precluded from being used in "services" such as overseeing the distribution... and making sure the widows/poor were cared for. Rather, such ones really needed to concern themselves with taking care of their CURRENT wife and household... as well as the wife they'd "put off" and THAT household (if they had children and she hadn't remarried).
So if just one man from each tribe had 5 or six wives each, each of whom produced say 10 children each, you'd have 100 descendants in the next generation. If each of the girls produced 10 children each in the next generation and each male married 10 wives who produced 10 children, then you can see how quickly each tribe could grow in just a short while.
You seriously underestimate the power and abilities of the Most Holy One of Israel, dear one. You also overlook the prophesy and question, "Can a nation be born... IN ONE DAY?" A nation can... and will.
Anyway, the total number is 1,440,000 and the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is a literal number, with a literal 12,000 from each tribe, made possible by those who could identify their tribe legally during Jesus' time.
Sorry, but your "total" number is an error, your reference to each tribe is an error (again, no Dan), and your statement regarding those even being ABLE to identify their tribe legally (i.e., by means of anything other than blood)... during my Lord's time in the flesh or now... is an error. He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, but who is one on the INSIDE. Having such a record, and such an ability... to state, by PAPER (legal record) who is from Israel... would have put a GREAT burden on the nations also being called in. It would have caused the Jews to "lord it over" them even more than that they did. The record was obliterated, however, for the very purpose of preventing this. You are correct, however, about the 144,000 being a literal number. That... you got right!
Now this will affect no one and doesn't have to be known specifically by anyone to be fulfilled. This is why Jesus says he puts "new wine" in new wineskins and does not put that "new wine" into "old wineskins", because it is just too hard to believe and too distracting and not necessary to believe at this point in time.
This had absolutely nothing to do with that statement, Lar. He was saying that you can't put something new... into something old... and not expect it to be tainted (by residue from the old; indeed, the old skin will most probably "leak").
After Armageddon, all the chosen can get updated onto the same page.
(Face palm) Lar, the chosen are updated at least 1,000 years BEFORE the event at Har-Mageddon. They've been being updated all along, which updating will culminate with their marriage to the Lamb... after which they return and RULE WITH HIM... for "1,000 years." The event at Har-Mageddon, however, doesn't even take place until AFTER that "1,000 years has ended." At least a bit of time after that, actually, because the Adversary has to be loosed to go out and mislead Gog and Magog, who in turn must "encircle the camp" and "come against the Holy City." Who knows what period of time THAT covers? So, you've got at least 1,000 years... if not more, and possibly considerably more.
I'm just explaining what the scripture means for those with the spiritual capacity to grasp and recognize the true interpretation.
And you really should stop. I mean, c'mon... if you're going to share the truth, at least share the truth. Which you can't get from yourself. You can only GET the truth of these matters FROM the Truth, Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. Yes, I know: you believe yourself to be Messiah. But let's be truthful, for once... finally... okay? If you were... the memorial tombs would have opened up, releasing those who belonged to "you" but had died... while those who belonged to "you" but had not died would have been changed. "New Jerusalem" would be HERE... and you wouldn't have to hide your identity behind an African American former male prostitute who used to dress like Diana Ross. You would be YOU: JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... and EVERY eye would see you.
BUT... you do you, Larry. I am not your judge. To your own master you will stand or fall. But you are certainly not the Chosen One of JAH that is the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. Not by any stretch. Because that One doesn't hide... and he doesn't lie. And you are doing both.
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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EntirelyPossible
And you really should stop. I mean, c'mon... if you're going to share the truth, at least share the truth.
Strange, then, that your Lord would promote via you, falshoods about me. He has the opportunity to validate himself and you now. His initial reason was that I would lie. Now that we can remove that as a possibility, his reason was that he never intended to. You tied yourself to this wagon and to get validation you want to shift the burden to me.
Sorry, not how it works. Let's all go him together and see what he can do.
His shifty and changing reasons for not standing up for his word via you doesn't make him or you look good.
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AGuest
Strange, then, that your Lord would promote via you, falshoods about me.
Not one falsehood, dear one (peace to you!). You're simply counting on the chagrin of those here to have more "problem" with me for revealing more. I shared the truth... from the Truth... which truth yourself corroborated. The record is here, dear one. If he lied... and I lied... then you lied. But I think the saying that, "When you're drunk you speak your sober mind," will testify that you were not lying... and neither was he or I.
He has the opportunity to validate himself and you now.
YOU validated him, EP... and me... starting months ago. Many times.
His initial reason was that I would lie.
It was.
Now that we can remove that as a possibility, his reason was that he never intended to.
Actually, "Peter", while I know you don't THINK you will lie ("Oh, no, Lord, I will NOT deny you!")... you will.
You tied yourself to this wagon and to get validation you want to shift the burden to me.
Ummm... no. I never sought validation. Then or now. I... don't... care. YOU brought this up... virtually a year later... because you believe people have forgotten what transpired. Well, you hope so. And many have. Some don't have a clue because it was some time ago. But not everyone forgot. Even so... the record is there. You... and anyone else who wants to know what transpired... can always go and review. I mean, it's not like I PM'd Simon et al., and asked for anything to be deleted...
Sorry, not how it works. Let's all go him together and see what he can do.
I don't think you are the one setting the "rules," here, luv, truly. You go... and if he calls me along, I will accompany. But that's not MY decision... or yours.
His shifty and changing reasons for not standing up for his word via you doesn't make him or you look good.
And you think he... and I... are worried about that because...??? "Looking good" has never been MY goal (seriously? and posting here??)... nor his. Only those who lie "care" about how they "look". Which is WHY they lie: to cover up what they REALLY "look" like... in their "nakedness." Especially when that nakedness has been unwittingly revealed. They'll grab the first piece of covering they can find. Even if it's the garbage can top.
Now, get back to work, dear one... before you lose that wonderful job. I wouldn't want to have that happen, 'cause I like the "new" you!
Peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA... who will remind you that it is, indeed, entirely possible...
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sir82
Oh god, a thread featuring Aguest & Lars debating.....
Why am I suddenly thinking of those old silent films where they'd show 2 locomotives crashing into each other head on?
And "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" as well.....
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EntirelyPossible
YOU validated him, EP... and me... starting months ago. Many times.
Seeing as how everything you have ever said publicly about me that he told you was wrong makes me suspect you might need to re-consider what you think the word validate means.
Actually, "Peter", while I know you don't THINK you will lie ("Oh, no, Lord, I will NOT deny you!")... you will.
Interesting that it took me less that five minutes to come up with a method to prevent lying and yet you and your Lord won't buy in.
YOU brought this up... virtually a year later... because you believe people have forgotten what transpired.
There you go thinking you know what I am thinking again. Wrong, yet again. At least this time you aren't trying to say your Lord told you what I was thinking.
I don't think you are the one setting the "rules," here, luv, truly.
I am the one calling out your Lord and you, and you both only step up when you think no one can call you out. You overreached yourself this time. It isn't going away.
Especially when that nakedness has been unwittingly revealed. They'll grab the first piece of covering they can find. Even if it's the garbage can top.
Ah, so that's why your Lord has so many reasons for not stepping up. He is grabbing the first trashy ones he can think of as they get shot down one by one.
Gotcha.