by journey-on 8 Replies latest jw friends
I find this scripture interesting, yet confusing. AGuest has referred to it many times. (Hopefully, you will respond to my question, Shelby.)
We have the shepherd that enters through the door. If the door is Jaheshua, who is the shepherd? Also, the doorkeeper is the one that opens the door to the shepherd, so who is the doorkeeper?
Journey-On:
John 10:6 answers your question actually. Jesus BEGAN a parable (v. 1-5) but the disciples didn't get it. So, he tried again, taking a slightly different take (v. 7) on it: "Therefore Jesus said again, etc. . . ."
We ourselves do this kind of thing often when speaking.
--Inkie
Inkie...So, Jesus is all three?...the shepherd, the door, AND the doorkeeper. Maybe I'm seeing something cryptical that's not really meant to be. You're saying his first explanation was vague or inadequate, so he had to repeat it more clearly. That seems a rather odd thing to include in scripture.
Well, in answer to your question, yes and no and yes.
What I mean is, in the first example (v. 1-5), Jesus is both the “shepherd” and the “doorkeeper” (who opens and closes the door) as is shown by the fact that the sheep listen to his voice. But verse 6 shows that the disciples did not understand what he was saying to them. (Does that surprise you?) It was the disciples who were dense, and did not comprehend what he was saying, not that the first explanation by Christ was inadequate or vague. The disciples often didn’t get what the Christ said. (No offense to the disciples.) He had to explain things to them many times. This is just a classic example of how Christ, changed what he said ever so slightly so that the disciples could get it. He repeated his explanation and yes, said it more clearly or easier for his disciples to get it the second time around. Odd? No, not really. Not when you truly consider the things going on here.
“Jesus is all three?” Yes.
In the first explanation Christ is the “shepherd” and the “doorkeeper.” As shepherd he opens the door, thus, he’s the doorkeeper too.
In the second explanation Christ changes the explanation so that the disciples get that he is the “door” through which the sheep go through.
So, yes, he’s all three. But remember, there are two explanations, one to clarify the previous one.
Like I said earlier, this kind of thing is not uncommon in everyday speech when trying to teach. It happens all the time. Ask any teacher.
--Inkie
Thanks for your input, Inkie. I guess what I'm looking for is a discussion on the esoteric meaning behind the symbology.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
"- To him (shepherd) the porter openeth,.... this intends God the Father, from whom Christ, as man and Mediator, derives his authority, and by whom he is let into, and invested with his office, as the shepherd of the sheep"
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Greetings, dear JO... and the greatest of love and peace to you! First, my sincere apologies for missing this thread. I am learning that I miss a LOT of threads that one's want me to respond to/comment on - I just don't see them all. Indeed, apparently, I am only actually looking at a fraction... of a fraction... of what's posted on the board - . Oops!
Okay, the problem is in the transliteration of the verses. According to my Lord, the word "enters/entereth"... is inaccurate. If I may be so bold, I would like to restate it to you as my Lord has related to me that he said and meant it (versus what the stylus of the scribes have penned). Note, I will include commentary to show how the verses themselves actually lend to what he says:
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that brings in to the sheepfold... not by the door... but by climbing up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (Now, it may seem that he's speaking of individuals, individually, but that's not actually the case and reading further will show that he is not).
Joh 10:2 But he that brings inby the dooris the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter/doorkeeper openeth; and the sheep hear his (the shepherd's) voice: and he (the shepherd) calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out (of the pasture/other pen... and into the "sheepfold").
Joh 10:4 And when he (the shepherd) leads out his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him (to the "sheepfold"): for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
To address these first illustration, dear Inkie and dear Vanderhoven (the greatest of love and peace to you, both!) commented, as to who the "doorkeeper" is:
Inkie - " Jesus is both the 'shepherd' and the 'doorkeeper' (who opens and closes the door)."
Vanderhoven: "... this intends God the Father, from whom Christ, as man and Mediator, derives his authority, andby whom he is let into, and invested with his office, as the shepherd of the sheep"
Here, dear Inkie is correct: Christ is the doorkeeper, as well, as shown by his words at Revelation 3:8:
"... I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:"
Dear Vanderhoven is correct, however, that my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, received his authority... which INCLUDES authority to OPEN the door to whomever he pleases... as well as to choose whom to lead... and lead them... from the Most Holy One of Israel. Just as the high priests who, in the Mosaic system of worship, were able to enter into the Most Holy... So, too, Christ, as the High Priest can enter into the Most Holy. For the former, however, they alone had authority to go in; now, however, ANYONE can go in... so long as they do so through Christ; however, Christ has lead the way, as well as "open" to such one. So, he is the shepherd that leads one TO to sheepfold, as well as the door through which one must enter... as well as the doorkeeper... who "opens" the "Way" to do so for such one.
The following verses will explain why he was referring to more than just an individual trying to get in, but one trying to get OTHERS in, as well:
Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
So, this answers as to whether he is the "Door" (BTW, he is also the "Narrow Gate" - same thing as the "Door")...
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
While this CAN refer to an individual (i.e., a psychic, etc., who enters the spirit realm without going through him)... this is actually letting the disciples/us know that he is speaking of those who tried to lead OTHERS in... but his sheep didn't hear/wouldn't listen to "them." They did so with an ulterior motive: to steal (away so as to have them follow THEM) and plunder (so as to bring God's "house"... also His sheep... to ruin)... God's sheep and thus, His "belongings".
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Again, since Christ is the Door, he is emphasizing that WHOEVER enters... with the goal of being saved (from Death) and having the ability to go in and out between the spirit and physical realms... must do so through him.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Here is where we can see that he wasn't speaking solely of individuals individually, but of those individuals who come to others, purporting to have some "authority" to get them "in". Their motive, however, again, is to STEAL them... and plunder God's house (them)... SO AS TO KILL AND DESTROY... them - God's belongings. They do this by leading them to DEATH... while TELLING them that they're being led to life. In contrast, my Lord's came... in the flesh... and since then, comes to such ones individually... calls them by name... and leads them HIMSELF... so as to lead them BACK to God... and thus, BACK... to life. Because life is what they were to have in the first place - no one died until Death entered into THIS realm, the physical world... THROUGH ADHAM. To get back to LIFE... one must go BACK... THROUGH Christ.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
And so, with this verse, my Lord is stating that HE is the shepherd that leads them back... to the spirit realm... which he does by giving them spirit BODIES (incorruptible vessels and thus, "WHITE robes" ). Of course, they will not stay there, per se: they will be like other spirit beings (although sons, not angels - which are servants)... and so able to go in and out between the two).
We need to continue the verses, however, because there's more explanation in them about those "others" he was speaking of: the thieves, plunderers... STRANGERS... he referred to at first:
John 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
John 10:13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
THESE are the "strangers" my Lord is speaking of: hired hands, who are not shepherds... and the wolf. The first (the hired hand) are those who CLAIM to be "working for" the shepherd. They are NOT the shepherd but represent themselves as being under his supervision. Since the sheep don't belong to these, they don't really care about the sheep - they only care about the "wage" they think they're going to get for getting the sheep "in." (NOTE: And this is very important - these are NOT God's sheep, those who are led by Christ... but other sheep (no the "other sheep" of the nations... but sheep who do not belong to God, through Christ. The "other sheep" that Christ spoke of also belong to him. However, there are sheep (those who will say to him, "Lord, Lord"... and then there are GOD's sheep. Ezekiel 34:11-19
The "wolf" are those who snatch and scatter sheep, who devour and destroy them. Unfortunately, they also look like sheep - wolves... in sheep's clothing.
Who do these represent? The "hired man" are the religious leaders of the world: the popes, cardinals, GB members, grand poobahs, what have you. The "wolves"... are those who present themselves as sheep... but actually hate/despise the sheep... and so treat them horrendously, so that they are snatched... scattered... devoured... even destroyed. They are priests, deacons, COs, elders, etc. Neither these nor the hired man care for or about the sheep, and the so ultimate demise of these is of absolutely NO concern to them. Indeed, one delivers them over to the over... for destruction... which is done by COMPLETELY SHIPWRECKING THEIR FAITH.
They do not include simply those who have no faith; rather, they are those who CLAIM to have faith... have "godly devotion"... but prove false to its power by their very lack of love... and unbridled judging and condemnation of the sheep... to the latter's SPIRITUAL "death."
I hope this helps, dear JO, and, again, my apologies for not seeing it earlier.
Peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Thank you, Shelby. I appreciate you taking time to address this (the greatest of love and peace to you as well). I have a deep interest in Jaheshua's parables and find it odd that his disciples did not seem to grasp a lot of them. He was constantly having to reiterate and explain. I think there are deeper esoteric "instructions" hidden in the symbology and these chosen disciples were being trained to decipher them; and perhaps, knowing they were being groomed for something deeper, struggled at times to get to that level.
The Hebrew letter 'daleth' is the symbol for door or gate.....the meaning is "an entrance to the inner light, to Knowledge and Wisdom, to order and structure, and to a new foundation on which new life can be built". I find this description of the door or gateway very fitting, don't you?
Thank you again for taking time to elaborate. You, too, Inkie and Vanerhoven.
Yes Aguest...
and part of that snatching,scattering, devouring and destroying is done by not allowing them to be in the covenant that allows them to belong to
their true master the christ and go through that proper door. These hired men and wolves, also ' scribes and Pharisees' as Matthew 23: 13 and 15
says, "They shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for they themselves do not get in, and do not permit those on their way to go in.
Hypocrites, you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves."
Shame on them! Fools and blind guides they are!
Justmom
