Was Judas Present During "The Lord's Evening Meal"?

by dontplaceliterature 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • dontplaceliterature
    dontplaceliterature

    So...I heard the speaker during the Memorial mention this. He said for a fact, that Judas would not have been present. However, upon reading Luke 22, you see clearly that the argument about Judas started AFTER Jesus instituted The New Covenant.

    I thought...HOLD ON A SECOND...and decided to research it.

    Matthew doesn't say anything about Judas leaving, ever. Mark doesn't say anything about Judas leaving, ever. Luke says he was there. John doesn't mention The New Covenant at all, but says that he left, but there is no context with which to place the timing of his leaving against the issuance of The New Covenant.

    The Insight Book under 'Judas' mentions the same lines of reasoning that are presented in the '57 Questions From Readers article about my same question. The articles both say that Luke was likely written out of chronological order (because everyone knows that doctors are horrible with records). This is a HUGE assumption, with no verifiable evidence to prove its truth.

    The articles also try to harmonize Matthew's account with John's, since in Matthew, Jesus mentions he has a betrayer before he institutes The Covenant (but Judas is not recorded as leaving), and in John, Judas is show as leaving "immediately" after Jesus mentions he has a betrayer, althought The Covenant is not mentioned in John's account.

    Lastly, the articles point out that Judas would not have been someone who stuck with Jesus through his trials (Luke 22:28), and so by inferrence, he would have been gone from the table when Jesus said this. This also is a pretty big assumption, IMHO.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I see the likely-hood that Judas would have been dismissed before "The Covenant" but Matthew, Mark, and John are all too ambiguous to know for sure. Luke makes it pretty plain that Judas was present at least until after "The Covenant" was set up.

    It seems to me, that the much more humble approach would simply have been to say: "There is no way to know for sure."

    Rather, it seems that The Scriptures are being manipulated to say more than they actually say, just to fit The Watchtower's vision of how EXCLUSIVE The New Covenant Arrangement is.

  • Sharpie
    Sharpie

    Yes. He was. This is different versions of John 13:26 http://bible.cc/john/13-26.htmSop: A sop is a piece of bread or toast that is soaked in liquid food and then eaten. In medieval cuisine, sops were very common. Sops were served with wine, soup or broth, which were then picked apart into smaller pieces to soak in the liquid. At elaborate feasts, bread was often pre-cut into finger-sized pieces rather than broken off by the diners themselves. The word "soup" is a cognate of "sop", both stemming ultimately from the same Germanic source.

    New International Version (©1984)
    Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    Jesus responded, "It is the one to whom I give the bread I dip in the bowl." And when he had dipped it, he gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    Jesus answered, "He is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread after I have dipped it in the dish." Then he took a piece of bread, dipped it, and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    Jesus answered, "He's the one to whom I will give this piece of bread after I've dipped it in the sauce." So Jesus dipped the bread and gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot.

    King James Bible
    Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

    So in conclusion, not only was Judas there, he PARTOOK of the emblems. By eating the wine soaked bread.

  • inbetween
    inbetween

    very interesting, never thought about it before. Yes, I can see why both sides have arguemnts for and against, however, it is the "certainty" of the WTS that upsets me.

    WTS clearly lacks humility, thinking of themsleves as mouthpiece of God, they seem to be forced (by themselves) always to have answers.

    You are not allowed to disagree, until they disagree with themselves (new light ).

    "A state of doubt is unpleasant, but a state of certainty is ridiculous." Voltaire

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    In John 13, the meal is over in v4 and Judas doesn't leave until v30. So, even if Jesus handed Judas a scrap of bread that was completely unassociated with the passing of bread and wine, they were up from the table and wrapped in towels, washing feet, before Judas left. Add Luke to that and it's pretty obvious that Judas was present for the passing of bread and wine.

  • TheLoveDoctor
    TheLoveDoctor

    Nisan 14, After Sundown

    Jerusalem is shrouded in the soft light of dusk as the full moon rises over the Mount of Olives. In a large furnished room, Jesus and the 12 are reclining at a prepared table. "I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer," he says. (Luke 22:14, 15) After a while the apostles are surprised to see Jesus get up and put his outer garments to one side. Taking a towel and a basin of water, he begins washing their feet. What an unforgettable lesson in humble service!—John 13:2-15.

    However, Jesus knows that one of these men—Judas Iscariot—has already arranged to betray him to the religious leaders. Understandably, he becomes very distressed. "One of you will betray me," he reveals. The apostles are highly grieved at this. (Matthew 26:21, 22) After celebrating the Passover, Jesus tells Judas: "What you are doing get done more quickly."—John 13:27.

    Once Judas has left, Jesus introduces a meal to commemorate his impending death. He takes a loaf of the unleavened bread, expresses thanks in prayer, breaks it, and instructs the 11 to partake. "This means my body," he says, "which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." He then takes a cup of red wine. After saying a blessing, he passes the cup to them, telling them to drink out of it. Jesus adds: "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."— Luke 22:19, 20; Matthew 26:26-28.

    (Luke22:19-22)19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. 21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed! (these verses show the new covenant was shared and Judas was there)

    (Mark14:16-26)16 So the disciples went out, and they entered the city and found it just as he said to them; and they prepared for the passover.17 After evening had fallen he came with the twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU, who is eating with me, will betray me.” 19 They started to be grieved and to say to him one by one: “It is not I, is it?” 20 He said to them: “It is one of the twelve, who is dipping with me into the common bowl.21 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.” 22 And as they continued eating, he took a loaf, said a blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said: “Take it, this means my body.” 23 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: “This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many. 25 Truly I say to YOU, I shall by no means drink anymore of the product of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” 26 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

    (Matthew26:20-28)20 When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” 22 Being very much grieved at this, they commenced each and every one to say to him: “Lord, it is not I, is it?” 23 In reply he said: “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born.” 25 By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].” 26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU;28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

    (John 13:1-20)

    2 So, while the evening meal was going on, the Devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Is·car′i·ot, the son of Simon, to betray him, 3 he, knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to God, 4 got up from the evening meal and laid aside his outer garments. And, taking a towel, he girded himself. 5 After that he put water into a basin and started to wash the feet of the disciples and to dry them off with the towel with which he was girded. 6 And so he came to Simon Peter. He said to him: “Lord, are you washing my feet?”7 In answer Jesus said to him: “What I am doing you do not understand at present, but you will understand after these things.” 8 Peter said to him: “You will certainly never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him: “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him: “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.” 10 Jesus said to him: “He that has bathed does not need to have more than his feet washed, but is wholly clean. And YOU men are clean, but not all.” 11 He knew, indeed, the man betraying him. This is why he said: “Not all of YOU are clean.”

    12 When, now, he had washed their feet and had put his outer garments on and laid himself down at the table again, he said to them: “Do YOU know what I have done to YOU? 13 YOU address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and YOU speak rightly, for I am such. 14 Therefore, if I, although Lord and Teacher, washed YOUR feet, YOU also ought to wash the feet of one another. 15 For I set the pattern for YOU, that, just as I did to YOU, YOU should do also. 16 Most truly I say to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth greater than the one that sent him. 17 If YOU know these things, happy YOU are if YOU do them. 18 I am not talking about all of YOU; I know the ones I have chosen. But it is in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled, ‘He that used to feed on my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’ 19 From this moment on I am telling YOU before it occurs, in order that when it does occur YOU may believe that I am [he]. 20 Most truly I say to YOU, He that receives anyone I send receives me [also]. In turn he that receives me, receives [also] him that sent me.”

    (my words) jesus washes their feet then institutes last supper while judas partakes watch for bold words

    21 After saying these things, Jesus became troubled in spirit, and he bore witness and said: “Most truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” 22 The disciples began to look at one another, being at a loss as to which one he was saying [it] about. 23 There was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, and Jesus loved him. 24 Therefore Simon Peter nodded to this one and said to him: “Tell who it is about whom he is saying [it].” 25 So the latter leaned back upon the breast of Jesus and said to him: “Lord, who is it?” 26 Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car′i·ot. 27 And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.”28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: “Buy what things we need for the festival,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night.

    yes i think the other disciples would have wanted to know why judas was not or did not partake but the didnt know of anything till after he betrayed jesus cause he was there at the last supper to partake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    I do believe Judas was present. I never used to think that because of Watchtower teaching. I always thought DaVinci's Last Supper was inaccurate because there were 13 people present... Now I feel it's inaccurate because there should have been 14 (one of the people in the painting seems to be a woman...the men are all very masculine-looking, even with long hair...this person has a very feminine face, as well as folded hands and demure down-cast eyes...plus, her robes are the same colors as Jesus', but are inverse...if Judas was there, that would make 14 people present. I do believe Jesus was married and this was his wife and I believe he did have children as well).

    Anywho, it doesn't make sense to me that Judas would have been dismissed for such an important occasion. The other apostles would have wondered why the heck one of the twelve was not partaking.

    Interestingly, this part always confused me...until I realized the folly of the WTBS. Jesus is said to have been god's son...but not divine. If that's the case, then how could he have been able to read Judas' heart to know he would betray him?? So, according to the bible itself, Jesus was divine. None of the other apostles were endowed with the ability to read hearts. While they made predictions and prophecies, healed and cured, etc, I've never read anywhere that said they were given the ability to know someone's heart. While I think that the bible itself is canonized to perpetuate the myth of Jesus' divinity, I think that even in interpreting such myth, the WTBS has it all wrong.

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