Hi
Jan
What
we have here is along similar lines to what I was discussing with fulltimestudent
above.
We need to look at the original word meanings and usage in the Bible.
In the KJV Isaiah
9:6 reads “his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The
mighty God,
The
Hebrew of Isaiah 9:6 actually reads differently to our English.
shall-be-called name-of-him wonderful councellor god strong
What
the original Hebrew is saying is that his name will include the
titles “mighty strong one” or “mighty valiant one” or
“mighty chief” or “mighty hero” (where mighty is from the
word “el” and the other words are possibilities of “gbur”
[gibbor])
There
is no definite article “the” in the Hebrew. It has been put in
by the translators. Is the definite article implied by the context?
Or does the grammar of the passage require that the definite article
be used to make sense in English. No. The definite article is not
implied nor is it necessary to make sense in the English translation.
We are told that his name shall be called – and then we are given
the titles that make up his name. All modern Bibles insert
punctuation to help us understand what is written. The original
writings did not have punctuation. Therefore any punctuation that
any Bible uses is as the translator deems fitting. The KJV and many
others put a comma between wonderful and counsellor thereby splitting
the two titles up. However some Bibles keep them together
“and
his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (ESV)
“..He
will be called, "Wonderful Counsellor," "Mighty God,"
"Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace"...” (GNB)
“..
He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
Father, Prince of Peace.” (GWV)
He will
be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of
Peace.” (HCSB)
Which
English reading seems to be the most appropriate?
Here a
re a few other variations. Please notice the words I have put in bold.
Also, notice that none of these use the definite article “the”
“His
names will be: Amazing Counselor, Strong God, Eternal Father,
Prince of Wholeness. (Mesage)
“he
has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince
of Peace.” (BBE)
“And
he shall be called Wonderful, counsellor, mighty potentate,
Everlasting father, prince of peace;” (Noyes)
The
Hebrew word rendered god does not have the definite article before
it. Nothing in the passage demands it and it is not necessary to
make sense in English. It is just god. Well, at least god in
English. As noted above in previous posts, the original ancient
word “el” does not mean what we refer to as “god” but come to
be used for that.
The
Hebrew word rendered as mighty in most of those translations and also
as strong, is, as you suggest “gbur”.
This
word can be used on many different occasions including as to be
referring to Jehovah. The
actual meaning of the word according to Strings Hebrew Lexicon is
“intensive from the same as 1397;
powerful; by implication, warrior, tyrant: — champion,
chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant
man. “
(the
Hebrew word 1397
that is mentioned there is “geber- properly, a valiant man or
warrior; generally, a person simply: — every one, man, X
mighty. )
In
the KJV this word appears 158 times. The KJV renders it in the
following ways mighty 63 times, mighty man 68 times, strong 4,
valiant 3, … ones 4, mighties 2, man 2, valiant men 2,
strong man 1, upright man 1, champion 1, chief 1, excel 1, giant 1,
men’s 1, mightiest 1, strongest 1;
Here
ar a few examples that you can check out at
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/
Ge
6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that,
when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare
children to them, the same became mighty men <1368>
which were of old, men of renown.
Ge
10:8
And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one <1368>
in the earth.
Ge
10:9
He was a mighty <1368>
hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the
mighty <1368>
hunter before the LORD.
Would
you equate Nimrod with God?
Jos
1:14 ...
but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty <1368>
men of valour, and help them;
Jos
6:2
...and the mighty men <1368>
of valour.
Jos
8:3
and Joshua chose out thirty thousand mighty <1368>
men of valour, <1368>
Ru
2:1
And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband’s, a mighty <1368>
man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.
1Sa
2:4
The bows of the mighty men <1368>
are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.
1Sa
9:1
... a Benjamite, a mighty <1368>
man of power.
1Sa
14:52
And there was sore war against the Philistines all the days of Saul:
and when Saul saw any strong <1368>
man, or any valiant man, he took him unto him.
1Sa
16:18
... that is cunning in playing, and a mighty <1368>
valiant man, and a man of war,
1Sa
17:51
... And when the Philistines saw their champion <1368>
was dead, they fled.
2Sa
1:19
The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the
mighty <1368>
fallen!
1Ch
7:5
And their brethren among all the families of Issachar were valiant
<1368>
men of might, reckoned in all by their genealogies fourscore and
seven thousand.
.
1Ch
9:26
For these Levites, the four chief <1368>
porters, were in their set office, and were over the chambers and
treasuries of the house of God.
1Ch
11:12
.. the Ahohite, who was one of the three mighties <1368>.
1Ch
11:19
... Therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three
mightiest <1368>.
1Ch
11:24
.. and had the name among the three mighties <1368>.
The
point I have gone a long way around trying to make is that generally
we accept and probably expect that translators have done the coring
thing with their translations. I hope I have shown that we can not
just accept what a Bible says without some idea of the original word
meanings and usage.
In
Isaiah 10:21 we have the words “el
gibbor”. In English it is generally rendered as “unto the mighty
God.” (KJV) or “to the
Mighty God.”
(NIV)
(Some Bibles do not capitalise mighty as the NIV and NWT has done)
Alternatives
“to
the Strong God.” (BBE)
“back
to the Strong God.” (Message)
“to
their mighty God.” (GNB) note has not used definite article
“the”
“to the mighty Potentate;” (Noyes)
“unto
God the mighty one.” (TRC)
The
Hebrew reads “to (toward)
god strong” Again
there is no definite article but the vast majority of Bibles include
it here. The questions to be ask are is it implied and is it
necessary to make sense in English?
We
are told the the remnant are returning to someone of something.
Without the definite article the sentence would read
“
A
remnant returneth — a remnant of Jacob, Unto mighty God.”
Personally
I do not think that the definite article is needed. In a strict
Hebrew translation using original word meanings that would read
“remnant shall-return remnant-of Jacob toward mighty strong one
(or one of the other meanings of “gbbr”)
It is word changes over time that we get might god in our English
Bibles.
There
is nothing wrong with mighty God as long as understand what or who is
being referred to.
The
God that the Israelites worshiped had a name represented by YHWH
and he was indeed a mighty one. The wording a strong might one
elevated him above just a might one, just as it elevates Jesus above
just a mighty or a strong one.
However
Jesus is NEVER referred to as the ALMIGHTY. The Hebrew word
“Shadday” rendered as almighty is only ever used of the God of
Jesus. The Greek equivalent “pantokrator” again is only ever used
of the God that Jesus worshiped. “Pantokrator” appears once in
2 Corinthians and 9 times in Revelation.
