Is it my imagination, or do JWs jump around in Mat 24 to prove "Last Days"?

by WontLeave 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

    This part there is a good case for. Since WW1, it has been pretty much non-stop wars with hyper-inflated body counts which include more non-combatants than ever before. But, Jesus makes it clear this is not the end.

    7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

    All scientific studies indicate no increase in earthquake frequency or intensity. Back in the '80s, JWs loved to use Ethiopia as evidence of the "famines", but most of Africa is actually doing better now than it was. Also, AIDS has become an epidemic in Africa, but not as much anywhere else. This is hardly "various places".

    8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    So, until all of these things are happening - and they're not - the End hasn't even begun.

    9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

    Where is this happening? Some (well-deserved) lawsuits and taxes? Oh, the humanity! Get a grip.

    10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

    Well, with the gestapo tactics of the JWs, I can see this might be soon to come, if not already started.

    11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

    7 million and counting? Nah, that's just mean. There are plenty of other false "Christian" denominations butchering God's word.

    12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    Now, this part they claim is already happening, so the end can come at any second. What about the stuff right before it?

    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

    Daniel is obviously talking about a very obvious blasphemy in the true religion (which JWs believe is them) and I can see this may already be starting to achieve Biblical proportions. Now we get into some stuff that isn't happening yet:

    16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
    22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

    But Jesus has been present since 1914, right? What happened to all stuff that just got skipped? And Jesus said not to believe he has come until all that other stuff is happening, anyway.

    24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    JWs are bragging about the preaching, the growth, their (revisionist) "pristine" record of interpreting prophecy (shockingly, some JWs actually believe this), the spiritual paradise tm of brotherly love, and return to abolute Truth tm .

    25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

    Jesus' presence is invisible, beginning in 1874, I mean 1914 and he picked us in 1919 to tell about it.

    27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    Disregard this verse, as it (and much of the rest of the Bible) is not for us, but only for the anointed. They see Jesus' presence, even though we can't. Really! Trust them.

    28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    More stuff that hasn't happened yet:

    29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Wait... You mean the generation from way back at the beginning, which they decided was 1914, where "the end is still to come", right? Or are we starting at this part, when we "see all these things"? Or are we just talking about what happened in 70 CE? That can't be right! That was less than 40 years later and "generation" means "overlapping generations for at least 100 years". Please, faithful and wise servant, tell us what Jesus meant to say.

    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    A bunch of stuff that hasn't happened yet:

    36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    No, wait; this part started in 1874, I mean 1914. Even though Jesus couldn't figure out when it was going to happen, Barber, I mean Russell figured out when it was going to happen. No, wait. The day/hour means Armageddon, not the invisible, generation(s)-long parousia. That must be a totally different parousia.

    But the next part definitely hasn't happened yet:

    40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    Here's some light tm for you. Don't question it, because it's from the faithful slave that Jesus already picked at the very beginning of all this (he'll get to that later). Just take their word for these facts: Jesus came in 1874, I mean 1914, just like was published after, I mean before the fact. We know he says nobody will know when he'll come and it would be when he's not expected, but he's talking about a coming within a presence. Yes, to all thinking and rational people he's obviously and apparently already here (now that the GB told us), but he's coming at a time when nobody knows, even though... he's... already here. See, they told us that we can't understand the Bible; that's why we have to do what they say.

    42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    Okay, now Jesus backtracks 100 years, because he failed to mention he put them in charge way back at the beginning of all this - at the beginning of his presence, but long before he comes:

    45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

    Aren't we so glad we have the faithful slave to make the deep things of God clear to our uninspired, unanointed, non-Spirit-directed, other sheep, earthly minds? Oh, and Jehovah wrote the new song book.

  • inbetween
    inbetween

    even in my days as mentally fully in, I had a hard time to understand this prophecy. I ebelive, there was a watchtower in the 90`s, trying to explain the prophecies in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, kind of concentrating on the word "then".

    Even though I liked "deep" stuff, I didnt really grasp it fully...now I know why, it just doesnt make sense. To take somethings saying it applies only to 1th century and other things saying applies to our time, and then other parts apllying to both times without any proof of this assertions is just wild speculation at best.

  • MrMonroe
    MrMonroe

    WontLeave, that's brilliant.

  • wobble
    wobble

    When I had my "epiphany" that 1914 was just not in the Bible. I sat down and read Matt 24 wthout WT specs on, and I was astounded to see that it read totally differently without the cult interpretation of it running around my head.

    I noticed the bits that were never stressed, the WT would major on a part of the sign, "wars and rumours of wars" say, and ignore the bit just after that said, but "the end is not yet", and so on.

    I concluded it was all supposed to happen quite close to the end of the first century, or early in the second.

    I like your commentary on it Wontleave, the WT does this in a number of areas, avoiding or totally changing the meaning of bits that do not fit their doctrine or agenda. Ironic that they have accused others of using verses out of context, when they are the worlds worst for so doing !

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    great comentary

    thanks!

    oz

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    I have been re reading Matt 24 recently too.I agree that the WT explanation is patchy, concentrating on the bits they want, and ignoring obvious clarifying things Jesus said.

    It says, as does Luke 21, that Christians should not be afraid of the signs because it will come at a time they do not expect it. Life will be going on as normal, wars, famines troubles, just like it always has been.....So live every day in expectation but do not get hung up on interpreting signs.

    At least, that is how it reads to me

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    A bible translation called "The Message" puts a very good spin on it.

    (this is taken from Bible Gateway, which is great because you can quickly compare a lot of translations.)

    " 4-8 Jesus said, "Watch out for doomsday deceivers. Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities, claiming, 'I am Christ, the Messiah.' They will deceive a lot of people. When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep your head and don't panic. This is routine history; this is no sign of the end. Nation will fight nation and ruler fight ruler, over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places. This is nothing compared to what is coming."

    I draw a couple of interesing points from this. The first is a specific injunction against doing what the WTBS has been doing for over a hundred years: predicting the time of the end. A corollary to this is don't listen to people like that. Also interesting is the comment "this is routine history." Jesus is tell us the exact opposite of the Watchtower interpretation. We are going to see all kinds of stuff going on, none of it means anything in particular.

    Jesus concludes with this: "Staying with it—that's what God requires. Stay with it to the end. You won't be sorry, and you'll be saved."

    I take that to mean "live a good life and stop worrying about when it will end."

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