Christian DOCTRINE comes from WHERE exactly??

by Terry 2 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry

    The Great Russian composer Igor Stravinsky is purported to have observed: "There is no such thing as Music Theory although one can be derived from the existing ouvre."

    Or, to put it another way: Doctrine (music or scripture) is an artificial human construct and a derivative. It is a construction of the mind based on what is already there in the work itself.

    The first wave of composers gave way to a second wave who BUILT UPON the first waves ideas.

    Teachers built a complex set of canonical ideas which they taught AS THOUGH no other way was any good at all.

    There was a "best" way and only that was good enough.

    Christian Doctrine was extracted and fashioned artificially too.

    Christianity followed the first wave of Jewish sayings, histories, ideas and orthodoxies.

    Whatever sayings, writings and beliefs the Jews held to be valid, inspirational and divinely guided formed the foundation.

    Hundreds of stories (gospel) about Jesus had circulated and spread. Eventually, these were built into stories.

    These little "books" became: bible.

    Christian Doctrine is extracted from the bible by people who interpret intention from scripture.


    Logically or illogically, the idea was this: ALL our religious ideas SO FAR must have come to us by God. And since they came from God they must be divine. And since they are Divine we better investigate DEEPLY and extract what ONE TRUE THING exists in all of it!

    All these writings MUST mean something. They must fit together into a SCHEME or PLAN for mankind. All we have to do is figure it out and teach it.

    Doctrine was born. Theology was formed. Orthodoxy must follow.

    Nobody seems to question the above basis.

    Nobody argues that these fundamental writings or sayings came from god.

    It was only a matter of sifting through them and GETTING RID OF what didn't seem to fit.


    The originals had long since vanished. They had NOT been preserved!

    Copies had appeared here and there. Snippets of this and that.

    But, the ACTUAL ORIGINALS had simply worn out or had been destroyed after the copies had been made.

    Think of it like the original paintings of Van Gogh.

    He couldn't sell them. (I think his brother may have bought one). Only gradually over a long time did Van Gogh's efforts acquire merit

    in the public consciousness and come to be valued ever more highly until, at auction, they are priceless works of genius!

    But, there ARE photographic copies of his originals for us to look at.

    The bible had NO SUCH photographic copies. What was preserved can't be compared to anything original.

    Since Christian Doctrine has been extracted from this what do we really have?

    It comes down to this binary choice: either God's Word has been supernaturally preserved in the bible or it has not.

    If it has not then it is simply silly to argue over any doctrine extracted from scripture. Garbage In= Garbage Out.

    What does this lead us to consider?

    IF the bible contains the preserved and uncorrupted word of God then it cannot AT THE SAME TIME be full of corrupt add-ons injected by human hands. Why? Because the Holy Spirit has the power to PREVENT this from happening.

    If the Holy Spirit DID NOT prevent corruption in scripture it follows that the bible is nothing but a corrupt human document.

    1.Why have zero (none, nada, zip) original manuscripts or autograph apostolic writings or epistles been preserved so that we can compare them to the bible which exists today? (The thousands of copies don't mean anything unless they accurately preserve the actual words.)

    2.Why do those who assert the bible to be inerrant (without error) ONLY DO SO about the ORIGINAL manuscripts and NOT the copies from which current scripture is derived? (Hint: remember; there ARE NONE)

    3.Jesus spoke Aramaic and never wrote anything down. The bible only contains a few of Jesus' words in Aramaic "Eli Eli Lama Sabacthani".

    Consequently, HOW can we argue meaning and interpretation over what Jesus said since we DON'T HAVE HIS EXACT WORDS?

    Doctrine, belief, faith, theology all MEAN NOTHING if they have been derived from INAUTHENTIC PARAPHRASE.

    No uncorrupt scripture=No uncorrupt doctrines possible!

    Thanks for listening.

  • dgp

    The sad thing is that not many people can go backwards and see how logical your words are. Most people's starting point is, in terms of a method, absolutely wrong: start from a premise that hasn't been proved, namely, that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. And then many studies are made and whole rivers of ink are spent just for the sake of "adding proof" to this premise, instead of "proving" it, in the first place.

    I was kind of amused, kind of sad, when I was watching TV and found what you would call a "holy tour guide" telling people that "archaeologists were sure that such and such ruins had been built during Solomon's reign". How exactly did they arrive at that chronology? But the people in the tour didn't notice they were being given circular reasoning.

    By the way, I like many of your posts.

  • Terry

    It is fairly recently I've thought about how things BECOME Holy to others.

    I'd compare it to watching an old movie and suddenly seeing a "nobody" actor in it who IS NOW quite famous.

    Somewhere between unknown and known a magical thing happens.

    Example: Sean Connery appeared in Darby O'Gill and the Little People

    He didn't make much of a splash in Hollywood.

    Then, a film called Dr.No came along and BANG!

    The Sean Connery in the Disney film wasn't valued by much of anybody while the Sean Connery in Dr.No was transformed into a film giant.

    The writings we'd call HOLY were just ordinary objects until---gradually---opinions changed about their VALUE and in retrospect they BECAME HOLY.

    That is probably why originals were destroyed after copies were made. Or, they simply wore out and were tossed.

    Family photos and objects that are junk in a drawer mean nothing until somebody dies or there is a fire and suddenly these items are valuable heirlooms.

    Human values are tricky things!

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