Evolution is Creation

by free2beme 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • free2beme

    I am not a Christian, but I used to be. I wonder though, why are hardline Christians so against Evolution. I ask, as it seems entirely possible to me that a higher power could use Evolution as Creation. Maybe this power sparked life at a basic form and let it spread to become what ever it became. As millions of years passed, it became creatures of deep thought, and in millions of more years it might become something more. To think that human beings are the highest and most superior form of life possible, seems small minded (as we are small minded).

    As example, look at the evolution of cars. Look back at the first ones and they were simple, plain, and in many ways junk. Now they are complex, computerized and fancy. Does that mean, it is wrong to study the evolving models of cars throughout history, as we should only accept what is sold and driven today?

    It just not seem hard for me to say, 'Evolution could have a divine backing!' Even the Christian bible says little about the begining, or what came before man and woman. Maybe, the divine knew it was far to complex to teach man at that point in evolution of species or society. So many different ways you can look at it, as well as so many ways you can look at a higher power, god, the divine, etc. However, in all ways, I really just do not see what is so wrong with seeing the reality of facts that show evolution and seeing it fits with creation.

  • Satanus

    The process that got us and the universe to where we are today, to me, it seems to be a process that resembles more the process of GROWING. For instance, trees grow from seeds or shoots that came from other trees, that came from other trees, etc. Crystals grow. Present life forms evolved, or one could say grew from previous life forms. The earth, basically grew from the detritus of stars. Stars grew from other fragments and hydrogen gas. Hydrogen gas grew from atomic hydrogen. Atomic hydrogen from smaller particles, electrons, or whatever. The roots of this growth go right back to the socalled big bang. Scientists are becoming able to see passed the big bang, somewhat.

    The point is that the natural growing process that we see in nature on this planet is similarly going on throughout the cosmos. It seems to be all one, continuous process.

    When we humans build something, it is a new, novel process. We are the gods, so to speak. Perhaps, w our builder/creator god, we are building a god in our own image, a new, novel god.


  • Ding

    A key theological problem with evolution is the NT teaching of sin inherited from Adam.

    If there was no Adam (or if there were lots of them), that teaching is in serious jeopardy.

    Also, the genealogy of Christ in Luke goes all the way back to Adam (see Luke 3:38).

    If there never was an Adam, this genealogy is wrong.

    Theologians who try to reconcile evolution and Christianity have come up with replies to these issues, but these are issues that have to be dealt with if a belief in the New Testament and evolution are to co-exist.

  • bohm

    I think it has to do with the adam/eve story and how sin got into the world.

  • thetrueone

    why are hardliner Christians so against Evolution.

    Lack of knowledge of biological archeology

    Lack of knowledge of geological sciences

    The list of the unacknowledged and unknown is long and strenuous

    but they have the emotional connection ( fear, guilt...etc. ) to ancient spiritualism that religion expresses

    even though that these ideologies were cultivated on human ignorances of the world they lived in as we do today .

    Emotions can structure an ideology apart from acquired scientific evidence and perceived knowledge.

    Religious beliefs or organized religion can offer many things toward men such as power, wealth, uplifted personal stature

    among some of the more prominent advantages .

    On the other hand atheism offers offers absolutely nothing at all.

    Such as the case, is it any wonder men who endeavor to hold the bible in their hands are self perceiving

    they are actually holding the power of god in their hands, sounds enticing doesn't it ?

    The creation and evolution of the WTS. is just one of these occurring examples of self empowerment by men.

  • free2beme

    You know, I was thinking as I read the replies. How much Adam and Eve are the main problem with evolution vrs creation, and you know that is sad. As I think if people could get past the myths in the Bible, that I personally think were not meant to be taken literal. There could still be found a possible divine in what science teaches and studies. Does it remove hope? Maybe. It might also help to show that maybe there is more to be learned and in time we need to be willing to come together on both sides and accept their is room for both parties.

    Now, I have issue with athiesm, as I think there has to be something to start the cycle. Thinking that it all just 'happened' and nothing made anything ... is even more silly then thinking an old man in heaven sits on a thrown and over looks all things (but especially likes this small dust partical in the universe, known as Earth).

    I think the real question between the two, is not where life came from. More so, how much influence or connection does life now have to that starting force. Are we really noticed, or are we left to grow and make it on our own? I think of it like a lawn, you plant the seeds and do all that your supposed to do, to make it grow. If you get the results you wanted in a green lush lawn, you are happy. But did you care if all the blades of grass grew or did the blades of grass really care what you did for them? I think they just become the result to what you started and go on to their end.

    Doesn't mean that the creative force might still not like a nice green lawn to picnic on. :)

  • TD

    I wonder though, why are hardline Christians so against Evolution.

    I don't know. A Creator who would design life to adapt and change endlessly would seem much more clever than one that would create only static "kinds."

  • Vidiot

    It's been touched on already in this thread, but I'll reiterate what I posted on this very topic about a month ago:

    For years I gave the matter major serious thought, (ironically, my devout JW Mom had nevertheless instilled in me a respect for science, reading, and education), and put together a breakdown of the reasons why evolution is the slipperyest slope imaginable for fundamentalists and Biblical literalists/innerentists of all stripes:

    1. If evolution is true, then the Eden account in Genesis cannot be literal history, and must therefore be allegorical. However, once you start recategorizing the essentially supernatural aspects of Genesis as allegorical, where do you stop? The Deluge? The Ten Plagues? The crossing of the Red Sea? the Virgin Birth? the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes? The Resurrection? The Revelation to John of Patmos? Eventually the temptation to explain away or dismiss ALL the supernatural events in the Bible can become almost overwhelming.

    2. If evolution is true AND the means by which God (assuming He exists), created and propogated life on Earth, then its very nature reveals a "God" who is fluid, changing, and enigmatic; the very opposite of an authoritarian deity as He's portrayed in fundamentalists' interpretation of the Bible.

    3. In the late 19th/early 20th Century, orthodox Christians finally got fed up with having to reinterpret the Bible and Christianity (as they percieved it) with what seemed to be every other discovery science made, and with the publication of Darwin's Origin of the Species, drew a line in the sand and said "NO MORE!" (plus, they found the suggestion that we could be descended from creatures like chimps and orangutangs kinda gross).

    4. (A big one) If evolution is true, Adam couldn't have existed as an actual historical figure, therefore he could not have committed Original Sin, therefore humanity (as a whole) did not need redeeming, therefore Jesus' (who some theologians have called the "Second Adam") "Redeeming Sacrifice" isn't the literal canceling out of Adam's Fall, as defined by the Apostle Paul and Augustine of Hippo, therefore fundamentalist Christians' understanding of Christianity's entire purpose may be potentially flawed.

    5. If evolution is true, then all the conditions (or restrictions) that fundamentalist Christians claim as having their origins in the Garden of Eden are suspect, not the least of which is the assumption that Christianity is the restoration of authentic worship as was ostensibly laid out in Eden, thusly threatening Orthodox or fundamentalist Christianity's claim to hold the "One True Path". (Yes, it sounds weird, but there are a few obscure Christion sects that subscribe to this)

    6. Biblical literalists/innerentists are not at all comfortable with a whole lot of symbolism, because it's "fuzzy"; open to REinterpretation. They like it black and white, and evolution has the potential to turn virtually everything important to them into shades of gray; it is therefore exceedingly threatening to their worldview.

    7. Biblical literalists/innerentists also believe that humanity has entered the End Times or Last Days as foretold in the Book of Revelation, and that if people are to take the last book of the Bible seriously, then they better take the first book in the Bible seriously (forgetting, of course, that one CAN take something seriously without necessarily taking it literally).

    8. Many conservative Christians interpret the Revelation passages referring to the post-Armageddon era as a millenium-long righteous utopia where justice and peace prevail under the benevelent rule of the returned Messiah, of which Eden is clamed to have been the prototype. If evolution is true, and Eden is allegorical, it potentially casts doubt on that hope.

    9. The vast majority of religious conservatives take it as an axiom that humanity is inherently bad (and needs to be kept on a tight leash for its own damn good, hence their often hawkish and clenched-fist political and social inclinations). A “perfect God" wouldn’t create “imperfect” worshippers, so something must have happened to screw us and the rest of the world up. The Genesis creation narrative of the Fall from Grace in Eden provides a neatly packaged theological (or, more accurately, ideological) explanation, but it really only works if it’s taken literally.

    As mentioned before, it’s not so much about Genesis per se; it's (mostly) about Eden. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that evolution is FAR more threatening to Biblical literalists and fundamentalists than gay marriage, stem cell research, or Roe vs. Wade.

    Interestingly, while researching “The Case for God” Karen Armstrong concluded that Biblical literalism was sort of an unexpected byproduct of the Enlightenment; the rational/scientific method for explaining the world around us had had unparalleled success, but an unexpected side effect was the discrediting of mythology, to the point where the word “myth” even became, for all intents and purposes, associated with “lie”.

    I light of that, how could people who revered the Bible associate their cherished scriptures with lies? They couldn’t, of course, and so Young-Earth literalism, well, evolved into its the modern-day (and often quite militant) form.

    I doubt the vast majority of Biblical literalists have actually sat down and worked out these details in their heads; I had to think about them for a while myself to clearly quantify them. I suspect, rather, that they grasp it more on an unconcious/intuitive level; this might explain the more visceral "reptile brain" response one often gets when one suggests evolution and Abrahamic monotheism might be compatible.

  • thetrueone

    Spiritual creation was derived from human ignorance, the ancients not to their fault did not have the acquired knowledge

    as what is apparent today. To not recognize this is being totally responsible and perhaps intellectually dishonest.

    Interesting enough we live within these ancient stories such as 7 days a week and most likely will into the future as well.

    Unfortunately today many forget or emotionally block out the fact the civilizations thousands of years ago had to endear

    an enormous amount of ignorance about the world they lived in. Therefore there is another element to accept and that is the evolution

    of acquired knowledge developed from scientific discoveries and held to through are own intelligence today.

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