Just wanted to bump this thread up.
Blatant misquote in the Origin of Life booklet
Also see Designer Stubble's thread : DC2010- The origin of Life and its many misquotes.
Clickable version of wobbles link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/194447/1/DC-2010-Release-The-Origin-of-Life-and-its-many-misquotes (good thread)
My sister gave my oldest son the two brochures, she asked that he looked at them in an open minded but "scholastic" way, he is far too busy to even read them, so i have penned this reply on his behalf, what do you think, suggestions are appreciated.
"The Origin of Life" Brochure
- an open-minded study.
You asked that this brochure be considered in an open-minded and scholastic way.
Open-minded means "Receptive to new ideas......" and a scholar looks at things using his/her analytical skills, and life experience and existing knowledge, whilst still being receptive to ideas that have merit.
Open -mindedness is not gullibility, so when one is presented with an argument by theologians, scientists, or politicians etc. one looks for the fallacies and falsehoods in the argument and presentation, otherwise one would be open to accepting every argument that comes along.
One bad argument method is to spend time mainly on attacking the "opposition", a method much loved by politicians, this does not though prove your argument, the oppositions could be totally wrong, but that does not make yours right, the facts do.
Another method is to use "loaded" language that affects the way we think about the argument, or arguer, that is being attacked, without reason or proof for such language.
Another method is the appeal to authority as though they back up what your point of view is, for this to be "tested" it is necessary to see who these authorities are, and what they actually say, so bibliographies need particular scrutiny, to the point of examining the original quote in context.
In fact the brochure encourages such an examination, quoting Proverbs 14 v15:
"Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps"
And Romans 12v1&2 "to use ones power of reason".
It would be possible to take issue with the brochure on most of its points, but it is sufficient to show where the above methods are used.
On page four we have an example of loaded language, under the heading "What do many scientists believe" we are told that scientists "believe" and "feel" certain things, not that they have "discovered" or "learned".
Just above that we have the statement that " some scientists seem reluctant to discuss .....
Where did life come from?"
What scientists, who are they ? Why are they reluctant ? We are not told.
It is a fact that very few scientists are engaged directly in the field of Abiogenesis, and so it would be foolish for those not equipped to publish their thoughts on the matter.
Page five states that "life always comes from pre-existing life" a bold statement that the scientists working in the field are close to disproving, the work in the area concerned with RNA having made great strides, I believe the brochure was prepared before the very latest work was published.
Dr. Carol Cleland is quoted as commenting on this, she has gone on record as saying:
" It is clear that scientists know how many of the most basic building blocks of life are made under natural conditions"
She adds, regarding the selective quote in the brochure:
"My work has been used before by these people and it really angers me because they are using it to defend views that I reject..... it is deeply dishonest for theists to deliberately distort the words of scholars for their own purposes; as I recall , this is a sin"
The brochure then asks "if we go back far enough in time ,is it really possible that this fundamental law was broken?" (Life always coming from pre-existing life)
The creationist should answer "Yes" to this, believing that the Creator did not come from pre-existing life. A huge leap of faith.
The brochure spends a lot of time attacking Evolution Science, which really is getting away from the title of the brochure, Evolution Science is about how the great variety of flora and fauna that existed in the past became that which we see today, not the origin of life itself, and so is an example of false argument, but let us look at some of the attack.
Much is said about the fossil record, and it needs stating that Evolution Science does not rely on the fossil record, rather it is a bonus. Yes it is incomplete, as you would expect because of the special conditions needed for fossilisation to occur, soft bodied animals being an example of difficulty.
What would be a problem for Evolution Science with regard to the fossil record ? what does Evolution "predict" that it should show? It predicts that simple life forms come first and more complex ones much later.
Creation predicts we should find such life forms side by side .
Or as one scientist (J.B.S Haldane) put it, what would be a problem would be:
"Rabbits in the Pre-Cambrian"
Has even one such anachronistic fossil been found ? No.
The brochure on page 24 quotes Henry Gee as though he casts doubt on the fossil record with his saying,in part, "The intervals of time that separate the fossils are so huge that we cannot say anything definite about their possible connection through ancestry or descent"
Studying the original quote in context we find that Henry Gee is not talking generally about the fossil record, but about two distinct fossils ,both Giant Civits, that lived a million years apart, this is blatant dis-honest quoting.
Notice too that the brochure has to admit that none of the quoted scientists or scholars are in doubt about the veracity of Evolution Science, yes, they show where more research is needed, and that is what Science is about.
Could not one reputable scientist be found to support the creationist view ?
A good number of scientists, such as Francis Collins, who worked on the Human Genome de-ciphering, are theists, but do not doubt evolution.
In summary the brochure is poorly argued, scurrilous and dishonest, if I was going door to door, in all conscience I could not offer this to the public.
Herewith I add some more quotes, as in the brochure, and then as in context, without comment:
. Quote 38:
At the beginning of the 20th century, all the fossils that were used to support the theory that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor could fit on one billiard table. Since then, the number of fossils has increased. Now it is claimed that they would fill a railroad boxcar.
Actual Reference 38:
An often repeated creationist canard insists that all known human fossils would fit on a billiard table. This was probably true in the late 19th century, but it has not been true for a 100 years. Known human fossils number in the thousands and represent the remains of hundreds of individuals. They are more numerous and better studied than the fossils of any other vertebrae group, because the intense interest that people have for the bones of their ancestors has driven them to devote far more effort to collecting and studying fossil humans than say fossil horses or herring. Having seen most of the major collections of human fossils in the world's museums, we can assure our readers that those collections can no longer be laid out on a billiard table. It would be hard to cram them all into a boxcar.
However, the vast majority of those fossils consist only of single bones and isolated teeth. Complete skulls - let alone complete skeletons - are rare.
Explanation of Actual Reference 39:
What this book further attempts to do, bearing in mind that results from studies of small numbers of post-cranial fossils have not been overly persuasive within the profession, is to carry out these studies using large samples. This means that we can better know populations through averages and variations, and be less dependent upon the vagaries of single, possibly far from average, specimens. Such studies have to be based upon teeth, because these are the only anatomical parts that are available in such large samples. Using teeth means we lose the functional inferences that can be readily derived from post-cranial bones. But we gain from the marked improvements in the sample sizes.
Perhaps the only consensus now is that there is no consensus.
Actual Reference 40:
At any point in time, the number of hominin genera and species recognized by the majority of specialists will be limited, reflecting the merging into a single category of specimens previously categorized as separate. But in turn new claims for taxonomic uniqueness keep the pool large, until affected by their own cycle of merger. Figure 1 is indicative of the addition of new taxa to the hominins; while most of these have subsequently been subsumed and disappeared from the literature, the chart shows that the pattern of new names for new finds show no signs of introduction of new genera has declined since 1970. There has been a substantial number of different classificatory schemes, both from those associated with the newer discoveries and from those standing to one side of these. [u]Perhaps the only consensus now is that there is no consensus.[/u]
Both 'splitters' - those who favour multiple species and genera - and 'lumpers' - those who prefer a classificatory and phylogenetic scheme with fewer taxons - vary in the criteria they consider essential to their classificatory scheme.
Nothing is known of the actual timing and mode of divergence of the African ape and hominid lineages.
Actual Reference 41:
With the discovery of Ardipithecus, Orrorin and Sahelanthropus, our knowledge of hominid evolution before the emergence of Pliocene species of Australopithecus has significantly increased, extending the hominid fossil record back to at least 6 million years (Myr) ago. However, because of the dearth of fossil hominoid remains in sub-Saharan Africa spanning the period 12-7 Myr ago, [u]nothing is known of the actual timing and mode of divergence of the African ape and hominid lineages[/u]. Most genomic-based studies suggest a late divergence date-5-6 Myr ago and 6-8 Myr ago for the human-chimp and human-gorilla splits, respectively-and some palaeontological and molecular analyses hypothesize a Eurasian origin of the African ape and hominid clade. We report here the discovery and recognition of a new species of great ape, Chororapithecus abyssinicus, from the 10-10.5-Myr-old deposits of the Chorora Formation at the southern margin of the Afar rift. To the best of our knowledge, these are the first fossils of a large-bodied Miocene ape from the African continent north of Kenya. They exhibit a gorilla-sized dentition that combines distinct shearing crests with thick enamel on its 'functional' side cusps. Visualization of the enamel-dentine junction by micro-computed tomography reveals shearing crest features that partly resemble the modern gorilla condition. These features represent genetically based structural modifications probably associated with an initial adaptation to a comparatively fibrous diet. The relatively flat cuspal enamel-dentine junction and thick enamel, however, suggest a concurrent adaptation to hard and/or abrasive food items. The combined evidence suggests that Chororapithecus may be a basal member of the gorilla clade, and that the latter exhibited some amount of adaptive and phyletic diversity at around 10-11 Myr ago.
The classification and the evolutionary place of hominid fossils has been under constant debate.
Actual Reference 42:
One of the main reasons of the [b]different interpretations[/b] of the evolutionary way of the hominids is that [u]the classification and the evolutionary place of hominid fossils has been under constant debate[/u]. It is caused partly because hominid fossils are not plentiful - inspite of the growing number of the fossils - and perhaps partly because there are a number of rival discovery teams, and the importance of a new hominid fossil discovery is enhanced if the discovery apparently requires new classifications and/or new interpretations.
Quote 43 & 45:
Actual Reference 43 & 45:
UNBRIDLED hoopla attended the unveiling of a 47-millionyear-old fossil primate at the American Museum of Natural History in New York on 19 May. The popular press immediately hailed the specimen as a "missing link" in human evolution. Some called it the "eighth wonder of the world". Google even incorporated an image of the fossil into its celebrated logo. Now that the first proper description of the fossil, nicknamed Ida, has been published, the task of separating the scientific significance of the fossil from the mass of public relations hype can begin. Ida is the first known member of a new genus and species (Darwinius massillae) belonging to an extinct group of early primates called the adapiforms, whose overall proportions and anatomy resemble those of a lemur. What does this tell us about her place on the family tree of humans and other primates? The fact that Ida retains features found in all early primates indicates that she belongs somewhere closer to the base of the tree than living lemurs do. But this does not necessarily make Ida a close relative of the anthropoids - the group of primates that includes monkeys, apes, you and me. To be connected in this way, Ida would have to have anthropoid-like features that evolved after anthropoids split away from lemurs and other early primates. Here she fails miserably: Ida is not a "missing link" in human evolution. She is, nevertheless, a remarkably complete specimen that promises to teach us a great deal about the biology of some of the earliest and least human-like of known primates. For this, we can celebrate her discovery as a real, if incremental advance. If Ida herself offers only limited extra insight into primate evolution, the PR campaign which greeted her raises the marketing of science to unprecedented heights. As a practising scientist, I applaud fellow scientists' efforts to promote their findings to a wide audience. But there remains an important difference between the type of publicity that scientists work towards and that which rock stars, sports personalities and politicians seek.
The currency that we trade in is rooted in data and objectivity. If we ever allow marketers and publicists to divorce us from that simple standard, we will quickly find our work being evaluated on the same basis as the advertising campaign for the next world tour of the Rolling Stones. Shall we all begin tuning our guitars?
Whole article can be found at:
Quote 46 is in line with actual reference:
"With limited data it is difficult to assess accurately the survival rate of different late Pliocene and Pleistocene fossil hominins. With such data it is easier to study the survival rate of newly patented species in the literature. The recovery of fossil hominin skeletal material operates, and has always operated, in a contemporary framework: that of physical access, national priorities, research funding and individual research passions. The interpretation of these finds, and in particular their initial naming, so frequently claiming uniqueness, emphasizes the subjectivity of these frameworks. The leader of a research team may need to over-emphasize the uniqueness and drama of a 'discovery' in order to attract research funding from outside the conventional academic sources, and they will certainly be encouraged in this by the print and electronic media, looking for a dramatic story."
"Any facial 'reconstructions' of early hominids are likely to be misleading."
Context of Actual Reference 47:
Depending on the reconstruction technique (Russian, British or American) there may be slight variation in the size of the nose and/or mouth. Mouth size for example can differ up to 1 cm.
One group of researchers used brain size to speculate which extinct creatures were more closely related to man admitted that in doing so, "they often feel on shaky ground."
Context of Actual Reference 48:
Here is a foreword in a book simply explaining a number of educated assumptions. "We use these (Brain size) to offer speculations about the interrelatedness and evolution through time, and even here we [u]often feel on shaky ground".
"Scientists have failed to find a correlation between absolute or relevant brain size and acumen amongst humans and other species. Neither have they been able to discern a parallel between wits and the size or existence of specific regions of the brain, excepting perhaps Broca's area, which governs speech in people."
"The Human Fossil Record: Brain endocasts : the paleoneurological evidence"
Actual Reference 49:
The above, plus: "Why have we failed to find this correlation? Because anatomically, the human brain is very similar to that of other primates because humans and chimpanzees share an ancestor, that walked the earth less than 7 million years ago."
"Neanderthals may have been a true human race"
Actual Reference 50:
"Since their first discovery, Neandertals have served as an out-group for interpreting human variation. Their out-group role has changed over the years because in spite of the fact that Neandertals are the most abundant of all fossil remains (or perhaps because of this) their interpretation is the most controversial of all human fossils. Many believe them to be a different, albeit human-like species, but recent genetic evidence supports anatomical interpretations indicating that interbreeding with other humans was an important aspect of human evolution. The combination of anatomical difference and restricted gene flow between populations suggests the possibility that Neanderthals may have been a true human race."
"Such pictures as this are based on the biases and assumptions of researchers and artists, not on facts."
Actual Reference 51:
"We view our pictures only as ancillary illustrations of what we defend by words...The familiar iconographies of evolution are all directed, sometimes crudely, sometimes subtly, towards reinforcing a comfortable view of human inevitability and superiority. The starkest version, the chain of being or ladder of linear progress, has an ancient, pre-evolutionary pedigree."
Wobble: I think you should start a new thread about it!
Not because its offtopic - im honored! - but it really deserve a seperate topic so its not burried in this thread which has gone a bit stale.
I will send you a PM.
Wobble, PM. I will respond in more details later.
What I have found is that you don't need a line by line debunking of any WT document.
You just need one rip snorter with all of the escape routes cut off.
They don't want to discuss any more than that. They just want to change the subject, run away, or try to use some form of psychological abuse after that so that the other 99 reasons why their book is a load of crap are wasted.
I agree B.S ,when in a face to face situation your method,as above, is the only one that works.
I think though that printing my little exercise off and giving it to my two sisters, one of which lives in a different country, may do a bit of good. They may ask others in the Congregation for their opinion and it may get more widely looked at, hope so.
By the way, everyone is free to use some or all of it in any way they see fit.
BS, which questions would you use?
Q: "The brochure claim to explain how some scientists belive life on earth could arise from dead matter. Could you explain how one of these scenarios is explained in the brochure?"
Q: "When discussing scientific terms like evolution, abiogenesis, micro/macro evolution, etc. - should we use our own definitions of those words, or those of the scientists who invented them? If we use our own definitions, should we explain what they are before discrediting them?"
Q: "Could you explain, based on the brochure, what the terms evolution and darwinism mean?"
Hello everyone !!!
I have opened the page about this booklet on EvoWiki : http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/The_Origin_of_Life%2C_Five_Questions_Worth_Asking
As I am translating most of claims in French currently, it would be great if some volunteers could fill the EvoWiki's page with the creationnist claims found in the booklet. I'm sure that 90% of claims can just be found on the EvoWiki site and copy/paste on the page dedicated but I don't have enough time (and I am also the only one translating the claims & their rebutals in French)
Thanks to Wobble for the misquotes enhanced and you can see the first claim of this booklet debunked by him.
Please find in this link the job done by Wobble gathered in a table sheet
Thanks for comment & proof readers !!
Great work wobble :)
hum....found by Wobble, put in a table sheet by me
So I am opened to find other blatant misquotes. Share guys !!!
The WTS brochure The Origin of Life - Five Questions Worth Asking states on page 28:
"One group of researchers used brain size to speculate which extinct creatures were more closely related to man admitted that in doing so, “they often feel on shaky ground.”"
"What the author of the booklet is trying to do in this section is to create a strawman argument where the brain size is the most important hint to evolutionary ancestry amongst the humanoids, and then he tries to knock that down by pointing out that there is little correlations between brain size and intelligence."-Emphasis added.
But this is a misrepresentation of the brochure. It clearly states:
"The brain size of a presumed ancestor of humans is one of the main ways by which evolutionists determine how closely or distantly the creature is supposed to be related to humans."-p. 28, emphasis added.
The brochure says that brain size is one of the ways, not the main way, of determining ancestry. Why did bohm misrepresent the brochure? It could be an honest mistake, although he/she doesn't seem to leave any room for that for the WTS.
Besides, the brochure is not about a book. The brochure is talking about the idea that brain size shows where in a supposed line of descent a fossil should be placed. The WTS says that this is false. The authors of the book agree, as does New Scientist. So what is your point?