6/15/2010 WT Twisting scriptures on disfellowshipping,

by EndofMysteries 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Disfellowshipping notes - Page 14 paragraph 13 - Notice how they state disfellowshipping for a man who unrepentently practices fornication. (it was beyond even that, but with his own mother! in the scriptures )

    But it gets even better....in paragraph 15 they said Paul instructed them to reinstate him after being repentant. The scriptures provided in 2 Corinthians. Now ask anyone to point out where in those scriptures that man in the first letter is referenced? It has NOTHING to do with him.

    Then, the REAL deception......in paragraph 15, they make the statement, "a repentant sinnerought to be readmitted to
    the congregation, it indicates that he has been forgiven by Jehovah." WOW, so only through the elders readmitting someone, is he forgiven by Jehovah. I guess if they do not readmitt him, he is NOT forgiven. Again, where in the bible is that backed up?

    Do they realize they are making the elders claim being able to forgive or not forgive sins? Who alone has that authority?

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    Power corrupts..no question..

    Loz x

  • wobble
    wobble

    I used to say for years when I was in that the guy mentioned in 2 Cor is not the same as the one in 1 Cor, of course nobody listened because the GB said different.

    I have seen their reasoning used by a conniving bastard who forced the B of E to reinstate him based on the time elapsed, only two years I think, he had enough knowledge of procedure (old hand, DF'd before) to fake repentance and get back in, I hope the evil devil enjoys being back.

    He "groomed" young vulnerable sisters , none under age to my knowledge, but vulnerable, and finally one got pregnant so it came out about that one.(In both senses)

    The DF'ing policy is not scriptural however they try, it is also unloving and therefore un-christian.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I do believe that the woman was his stepmother and I think he married her. That was not allowed under the Law but were Christians under the Law after all men were not required to be circumcised. I wonder if that would be a df'ing offense today?

    There is no genetic connection so was it incest, would it be incest today. There does not seem to be any pedophilia involved since they were both adults, could it be a case of adultery? Is it against secular law to marry your ex-stepmother?

    *** w78 3/15 p. 27 Incestuous Marriages—How Should Christians View Them? ***In this connection, what of the case described at 1 Corinthians 5:1? Here the apostle describes an immoral relationship between a man and his father’s wife, evidently the man’s stepmother.The account does not say that any marriage was involved and, in fact, the apostle calls it “fornication” (porneia). The account does not say that the man’s father was still alive, although the words at 2 Corinthians 7:12, if applying to this same case, would indicate that he was. It therefore seems that it was not a case of marriage but of the man’s living immorally with his stepmother. But, even though the question of marriage may not be involved, Paul’s reference to this as a case of fornication such as “is not even among the nations” clearly shows that the family relationship existing made the fornication especially scandalous.—1 Cor. 5:1.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Absolutely Wobble - I am 1/2 tempted to each month bring to light the twisting of the articles and then 'what the bible REALLY teaches' in rebuttal.

    For example, if somebody commits a sin and GOES to the elders, if they were truly following biblical principles, there would be no judging at all about it, it would be as follows

    1 Cor 4:3 the apostle Paul HIMSELF says this " now to me it is a very trival matter taht I should be examined by you or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself.

    James 4:14 Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him, greasing [him] with oil in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.

    The bible ONLY supports, from one of Pauls letters, one who would willingly without intent or desire to change practicing certain things. Anyone who did do sin, goes to Elders, no matter how much or how many times, if they are stopped by that time, and wanting to change, no scriptural basis to DF them.

    The other thing........even if the Elders say they are forgiven and okay now, they don't have the power to do that. The most, someone annointed from a few scriptures 'might' be able to say that, no to say if they are or are not.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Reading 1 Cor 5:1 in INTERLINEAR, seems it may even be mistranslated.

    It says in the direct Greek to English before rearranging the words....... "Wholly it is being heard in you fornication, and such fornication which not-but in the nations, as-and woman someone of the father to be having. " - Don't know greek, but seems it could be saying incest, "someone of the father", his sister for example.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I believe this is a scripture Witnesses will refer to when claiming that decisions made by elders are binding in heaven as well as on earth.

    Matt 18: 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU , If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    That scripture is speaking about 'annointed' ones. Those 'chosen', 'elect', etc. It's speaking of gaining and loosing ones in God's favor.

  • marcopolo
    marcopolo

    there is also say: some letters written Corintis are lost, Paul has written 4-5 letters to the Corintis we have only 2 if also this 1° and 2° was 1 the beginning wa 4 letters,,in Cor 5: 9 in my letter. this lost. also 2 Cor. 2:4 and 7: 8 other letters. cannot Disfellowsh.. someone if he go to confess. only if he doing becomes in the community and in the world scandalous olders intervene.

  • jordan12
    jordan12
    Notice how they state disfellowshipping for a man who unrepentently practices fornication. (it was beyond even that, but with his own mother! in the scriptures )

    I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. What The Watchtower says is exactly what the Bible says. It wasn't his mother. If it had been his mother, Paul would surely have said so. It was his father's wife, so presumably his stepmother.

    But it gets even better....in paragraph 15 they said Paul instructed them to reinstate him after being repentant. The scriptures provided in 2 Corinthians. Now ask anyone to point out where in those scriptures that man in the first letter is referenced? It has NOTHING to do with him.

    I hardly think that the idea that 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 2 are referring to the same case is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses or invented by them. No doubt there are a variety of opinions, but a fair number of commentaries agree with what The Watchtower said:

    "If any have caused grief. The reference in this indirect way is to the incestuous person named in 1Co 5:1." (People's New Testament, 1891)

    "Any. Referring to the incestuous person." (Vincent's Word Studies)

    "If any have caused grief - There is doubtless here an allusion to the incestuous person." (Albert Barnes)

    "But, if any have caused grief - Here he seems to refer particularly to the cause of the incestuous person." (Adam Clarke)

    "he handles the releasing and unloosing of the incestuous person" (Geneva Bible commentary)

    "But if any have caused grief,.... The incestuous person is here manifestly designed" (John Gill)

    "In these verses the apostle treats concerning the incestuous person who had been excommunicated" (Matthew Henry)

    "The “any” is a delicate way of referring to the incestuous person." (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary)

    What makes you think that Paul was talking about a different case in 2 Corinthians?

    Then, the REAL deception......in paragraph 15, they make the statement, "a repentant sinnerought to be readmitted to
    the congregation, it indicates that he has been forgiven by Jehovah." WOW, so only through the elders readmitting someone, is he forgiven by Jehovah. I guess if they do not readmitt him, he is NOT forgiven. Again, where in the bible is that backed up?

    You're misrepresenting the sense of the article. The entire paragraph says:

    "What do we learn from this account? It saddens us when individuals have to be disfellowshipped. They may have brought dishonor upon God’s name and discredited the congregation. They may even have sinned against us personally. Yet, when the elders appointed to examine the case determine, in line with Jehovah’s direction, that a repentant sinner ought to be readmitted to the congregation, it indicates that he has been forgiven by Jehovah. (Matt. 18:17-20) Should we not seek to imitate Him? Indeed, to be harsh and unforgiving would be tantamount
    to opposing Jehovah. In order to contribute to the peace and unity of God’s congregation and to have Jehovah’s approval, should we not, rather, ‘confirm our love’ for sinners who truly repent and are reinstated?"

    The article clearly states that when the elders determine that a repentant sinner ought to be readmitted, it indicates that he has been forgiven [past tense] by Jehovah. In other words, the article does not say that someone is forgiven by Jehovah "through the elders readmitting [him]", as you state. Actually, it says the opposite: the elders' job is to determine whether the person has been forgiven by Jehovah.

    This is confirmed by what previous Watchtower articles have said, commenting on the same verses (Matthew 18:17-20):

    "Their decision should accurately reflect the way Jehovah and Christ consider the matter. What they symbolically ‘bind’ (find guilty) or ‘loose’ (find innocent) on earth should be what has already been bound or loosed in heaven—as revealed by what is written in the inspired Word of God. If they pray to Jehovah in Jesus’ name, Jesus will be “in their midst” to help them." (July 1, 1992, page 16)

    "In matters involving serious violations of God’s law, responsible men in the congregation would have to judge matters and decide whether a wrongdoer should be “bound” (viewed as guilty) or “loosed” (acquitted). Did this mean that heaven would follow the decisions of humans? No. As Bible scholar Robert Young indicates, any decision made by the disciples would follow heaven’s decision, not precede it. He says that verse 18 should literally read: What you bind on earth “shall be that which has been bound (already)” in heaven.
    Really, it is unreasonable to think that any imperfect human could make decisions that would be binding upon those in the heavenly courts." (March 15, 1991, page 5)

    "In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah’s Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment ‘will already have been bound in heaven.’ And when they “loose on earth,” that is, find one innocent, it will already have been “loosed in heaven.” In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, “where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”" (February 15, 1988, page 9)

    Do they realize they are making the elders claim being able to forgive or not forgive sins? Who alone has that authority?

    They aren't making any such claim (see above)

    Jesus did actually state that his followers could forgive sins. He said: "If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.” (John 20:23) But The Watchtower has never claimed to be able to forgive sins or grant absolution in the manner of the Catholic church. It commented on this verse:

    "Hence, any forgiving or not forgiving on the part of the elders would be in the sense of Jesus’ words at Matthew 18:18: “Truly I say to you men, Whatever things you may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven.” Their actions would simply reflect Jehovah’s view of matters as presented in the Bible. (April 15, 1996, page 29)

    I used to say for years when I was in that the guy mentioned in 2 Cor is not the same as the one in 1 Cor, of course nobody listened because the GB said different.

    Probably no-one listened because it is quite obvious that he was talking about the same person. What makes you think otherwise? It's not just the GB who say so; so do many Bible scholars (see above)

    It says in the direct Greek to English before rearranging the words...... "Wholly it is being heard in you fornication, and such fornication which not-but in the nations, as-and woman someone of the father to be having. " Don't know greek, but seems it could be saying incest, "someone of the father", his sister for example.

    No. "Someone" is the subject of the sentence. "Woman" goes with "of the father," i.e. the father's wife and is the object.

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