Fun meeting with an elder

by teel 7 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  teel

  A few days ago an elder, old aquaintance of mine visited me (alone, which was my request - props for him for accepting my terms). It was quite an interresting meeting. This elder is quite intelligent, he is a professor at a local college. Here's part of our talk:

  "Teel, the world can offer you nothing but uncertainty."

  "What is better, to firmly believe in something wrong, or to be uncertain of things?"

  Yep, I laid the good old "false dilemma" fallacy in front of him, and he just couldn't see it. The WT uses false dilemma so much they take it as normal conversation. He must have known he can't choose between these two. So he just erm-ed and huffed, and started talking about how we have to use "common sense" to judge our firm beliefs on; how the muslims kill the innocent just because they firmly believe that's the right thing to do.

  So I asked: "If a certain medical procedure has better chance of success, would it not be 'common sense' to choose that over the one that has less chance of success?"

  He knew at once I was talking about blood, so he tried to explain that here "common sense" would mean to choose the eternal life Jehovah gives instead of a short lengthening of your life. But, I asked, "Isn't that exactly what the muslims are claiming? That what they do is common sense, and you can't understand his actions only because you don't believe in Allah?"

  We also talked about the biblical basis of disfellowshipment. He asserted:

  "1 Cor 5:11 is a definite law how you should behave with such people" (actually he didn't mentioned the verse, he didn't even take out the Bible the whole time)

  "In turn Paul talks about how the 'scolding of the majority' is enough for such people, which means the congregation didn't view Paul's words as law."

  "Well, I haven't thought about this verse yet. But in 1 Cor 5:11 it's a definite command, while this other verse is just describing some events that happened."

  "Yes, but if that happened, can't we conclude the overall spirit of how Paul's words were received in the congregation? Meaning it wasn't a law, rather an advice, like in 'Bad company corrupts good character'?"

  "Teel, you're taking one verse, interpret it in your way, and try to force that interpretation on an other verse."

  "But isn't this the same you were doing just now? You just said 1 Cor 5:11 is a law, so there must be some explanation why some have not followed that law, but it can't be because they didn't view it as a law."

  All in all it was a fun conversation.
• 

  lepermessiah

  Wow....

  "1 Cor 5:11 is a definite law how you should behave with such people" (actually he didn't mentioned the verse, he didn't even take out the Bible the whole time)

  Ask him why the Greek translations use the same word for "not associating with" in the scripture the WT uses for "marking". Its the same word, why is one scripture used to encourage shunning, where the next simply means to watch your association with the person???

  I have a stalker at the hall right now who wants to come over.

  I keep blowing him off, but if for some reason he gets me in a conversation, I will not even mention doctrine.

  I will ask him:

  1) Did you know that besides the Catholic Church, based on my extensive research, Jehovah's Witnesses are the second-most involved religious organziation in child molestation cases? Do you really believe God and Christ would allow their "chosen organization" to be that corrupt?

  2) Did you know that millions of dollars for the world-wide work were used as "hush money" to pay off several long-suffering victims of child abuse?

  3) Did you know that even though the WT loves to blast the Catholic Church and other religions for moving pedophiles around from congregation to congregation to "get rid of the problem" , the Society has allowed that for years and years? Again, would Christ as the "head of the congregation" turn a blind eye to that, or would God's Spirit which supposedly appointed this man also then make it known that he is a molester?
• 

  cattails

  Hey Teel,

  you've got a PM.

  --Cat
• 

  Bluegill

  "This elder is quite intelligent, he is a professor at a local college."

  It just baffles the mind doesn't it?
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  I know A LOT of college professors who apparently are ONLY intelligent in their subject of interest. Some of these clowns, I wouldn't be surprised to find out someone helps them tie their shoes and get on the right bus in the morning. Yet they can research and teach rocket science or brain surgery. Exactly the type of person the Borg looks for.
• 

  teel

  From what I understood in my brief foray into mind control techniques, intelligent minds are even more susceptible to outside influence, contrary to what one might expect. The artificial pathways in the mind created by mental conditioning can go much deeper because there is depth in him to facilitate this. Someone who is less of a thinker, might be persuaded much easier to join a cult, but as soon as some other thing captures his attention, he can just as easily get out as he got in.

  I remember an old Bible study of mine, a mother who in my assessement barely touched 70 on the IQ scale. We have not progressed one inch in about 5 years of our visiting - the wife still visits her. The rationalizing types might be a little harder to convince, but are much better catch for a cult. And with all the 'research materials' the society gives them, it's not that hard to trap the intelligent types either, you don't have to be smarter than him, the literature will do the hard work for you.
• 

  agonus

  You know, teel, some really scary-smart people believe some scary-ass crap. Their thought processes can be so different from "normal" or even smart-but-not-quite-scary-smart people that Da Troof actually makes some sense. Some say Fred Franz was like that. Of course, the current GB is more Forrest than Freddy...
• 

  inbetween

  our hall has quite a number of very intelligent individuals,

  one has all kinds of books about Philosophy at home, and he read them and, from my point of view, even undertstood most of their thinking, but their is not one trace of doubt about JW theology

  another one, an elder, very smart individual as well, sometimes doubts certain explanations of the oRG, but never the whole thing, I´ll be curious how he will explain the "generation" at the WTs study ( he is the conductor) and he goes often very deep with his additional questions, makes you really think, his WTs study is not as braindead as most here describe it actually...I plan to discuss it with him afterwards, he is also honest with me, if he disagrees to certain stuff.

  besides them we have a number of college graduates, also smart people, however, they must leave their brain at the entrance, when they enter the hall....