Proof: Jehovah's Witness beliefs are based on a FALSE PREMISE

by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    Did you know there are NO NUMBERS in the Bible at all?

    That's right.

    Oh, except the Book of Numbers (which is rather counter-intuitive) which contains no numbers itself.

    What am I talking about?

    Consider this startling fact:

    In Hebrew and Greek there existed no NUMBER symbols at all.

    You are probably familiar with what the Romans did about their lack of numbers:

    MCMLXIV (the year 1964 in Roman "numerals")

    Before we continue, stop and think about the full impact of NO NUMBERS on your daily life.

    Calling somebody on your cellphone requres an area code followed by seven numbers. Figuring sales tax percentages, doing your income tax, balancing your checkbook, marking your calendar for special events....all require precise number depiction and manipulation!

    In Greek, Hebrew or Roman Latin you'd have to substitute letters of the alphabet instead!

    Imagine taking a math class with no numbers....only letters!

    Algebra would simply be impossible because the mixture of letters and numbers is necessary as two separate sets of symbols.

    What should we be thinking right now about this lack of symbols as it pertains to....THE BIBLE!!??

    Accuracy requires clear use of symbols
    All the quantities, measurements, years, months, hours in the Bible DO NOT EXIST as numbers!!

    There are only cases where letters are used and the context ___would seem__to indicate a quantity of some kind should be read instead!

    Let that sink in for a minute.

    Hint: We could do this with our own alphabet by making A=1 B=2 C=3 etc.

    Instead of adding 4513+214 together you'd have to add DEAD+BAD!

    We'll call that PROBLEM ONE.

    Let's move on to PROBLEM TWO.

    Ancient people were prone to superstitions (yes, even our famous Bible characters and heroes.)

    When certain quantities (represented by letters, remember!) spelled out a WORD.....they viewed it as "meaningful" in a superstitious way.

    This is called GEMATRIA:

    Gematria or gimatria (Hebrew: ??????? ‎, gema?riya) is a system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other, or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like.
    The best-known example of Gematria is the Hebrew word Chai ("life"), which is composed of two letters which add up to 18. This has made 18 a "lucky number" among Jews, and gifts in multiples of $18 are very common among Jews.

    It is very silly, of course. We have a carry over from that in modern times called NUMEROLOGY. It is crap and not worth talking about. So, I won't.

    Back to our point.

    Quantities...Measurements...dates...amounts..
    1.The Bible contains no numbers because the language of the Bible (Greek, Hebrew, Latin) contains no numbers.

    2. The confusions arising from words being seen as magical when they represent number quantities led to superstitions
    .

    There is yet a THIRD PROBLEM.

    You aren't going to believe it but ZERO did not exist as a number until about the 9th Century A.D. in India.

    That's right. There are no zeros in the Bible either. Ancient civilizations were perplexed by such a concept.

    As scientific as the Greeks were and logical in their thinking, they stumbled badly over zero.

    Records show that the ancient Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number. They asked themselves, "How can nothing be something?", leading to philosophical and, by the Medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum. The paradoxes of Zeno of Elea depend in large part on the uncertain interpretation of zero.

    In Babylon, attempts were made to leave a bit of space to indicate a placeholder position. But, you can imagine how precise that would have to look to avoid somebody just skipping it and missing the point (and, importantly, missing the quantity that was implied!)

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    What must we now conclude?

    BIBLE CHRONOLOGY is impossible because of gematria, numerology, lack of number representation, lack of zero concepts and the horrible

    disaster known as SCRIBES COPYING WITH ERRORS!

    Imagine trying to distinguish the context of a seeming "word" that really meant a "number amount". Or squinting at a __space and determining if it were a zero place holder or not!

    The writings, copying of writings, variance of interpretation, imprecision of communication and general lack of solid foundation is an awful MESS!

    Where does this leave Bible scholars when they attempt to compute years, months, days, quantities?

    It leaves them GUESSING! They compare, contrast, contextualize and interpret but that finally have to GUESS!

    And you wonder why nobody has ever been able to predict the date of Armageddon?

    Let's attempt a moment of sanity, shall we?

    Intellectual honesty requires us to confront facts and face them.

    Christianity cannot truthfully tell the world the Bible communicates a Divine message inerrantly.

    Further, it cannot represent a nearly accurate record of chronology for purposes of computing a reliable or meaningful document.

    (All bible scholars are aware there are, astonishingly, NO ORIGINAL TEXTS in existence. No autograph manuscripts of uncorrupt scripture remain anywhere on our planet to compare with the pieces of copies we now have.)

    In a couple of instances an event mentioned in the Bible will correspond with a known secular event. That's about it. The rest is just so much silly mush!

    As Jehovah's Witnesses we were more than well aware how much theology and doctrine are solely dependant on Bible Chronology!

    The figuring of the date of Jesus' invisible arrival in 1914 went through painstaking revisions over and over.

    The appointing of the Gentile Times is the cornerstone of JW belief system faith.

    The crazy predictions of when Armageddon would arrive and the constant failures are huge embarassments.

    In view of our awareness that the Bible contains no numbers, no zeros, no transmission method with integrity aren't we required to ask this:

    WHY BASE A RELIGION ON AN IMPOSSIBILITY?

    Wouldn't this indicate the religion is false?

    If Bible Chronology cannot be accurate and the religion is based on establishing a non-fact (Jesus set up his Kingdom in 1914) it is a lie!

  • dgp
    dgp

    I hadn't thought of it that way. I had noticed, however, that there is nothing to tell us why we should take the witnesses chronology as true, instead of as just another too deep reading into the Bible. There are so many people who have found secret codes in the Bibles that I wonder why we have to believe this one. Your comment makes it even harder for me to believe in the chronology.

  • Terry
    Terry

    There are so many people who have found secret codes in the Bibles that I wonder why we have to believe this one
    .

    Scribes well into the Middle Ages deliberately arranged the first letter of a line (or first word) in a way that would "spell out" seemingly mystical things.

    Superstition crept into texts deliberately. Numerology was rampant. The texts are rife with corruption.

    That is why, I think, the Early Church fathers deliberately DESTROYED the original manuscripts. It became obvious how much superstition had been layered in. Better to revise and rearrange and cosmetically portray what was "must have been meant" much in the manner of how Watchtower writers have done!

    So many local churches were steeped in Mystery religion versions of what became Christianity; much of it cobbled together from Neo-Platonism and Gnosticism......if we really faced the facts about what Christianity started from and how much it has been extrapolated into other things......well....

    we could not take any of it seriously.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Terry...sometimes your writings are brilliant, other times (like this), it seems like you are reaching too hard to make a point and go down a rathole.

    Oh, except the Book of Numbers (which is rather counter-intuitive) which contains no numbers itself.

    Two isn't a number, but two = 2 = "a whole integer between one and three" = "a whole integer between 1 and 3" = 4-2 = 4 minus 2 = one + three = three subtracted from 5.

    Just because words are used to represent numbers rather than the "numbers" 0 - 9 doesn't make them any less valid a representation. In fact, 0 - 9 aren't numbers themselves either, but merely a way to represent the numbers.

    You make some good points a lot of the time, but this post seems like you went down a huge rathole.

  • ldrnomo
    ldrnomo

    So that means the number, 144000 could really stand for IDIOTS.

    LD

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    All religions are based on a false premise.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    There are so many people who have found secret codes in the Bibles that I wonder why we have to believe this one.

    Someone on here said a few days ago, I forget who wrote it, but they said that it seems that everyone that "figures out" when the "end" or armageddon or when christ will return by using secrets codes always manages to arrive at a date that occurs in their lifetime, or at least, way more often than not. Interesting idea to say the least and at least anecdotally verified by my own lazy research.

    That is why, I think, the Early Church fathers deliberately DESTROYED the original manuscripts.

    Speculation or is there a source for this? If this is in any way verfiable, it would be VERY interesting....

  • Terry
    Terry

    Two isn't a number, but two = 2 = "a whole integer between one and three" = "a whole integer between 1 and 3" = 4-2 = 4 minus 2 = one + three = three subtracted from 5.

    Just because words are used to represent numbers rather than the "numbers" 0 - 9 doesn't make them any less valid a representation. In fact, 0 - 9 aren't numbers themselves either, but merely a way to represent the numbers.

    I think you may have missed my point!

    It is in the act of representing quantity IN THE SAME WAY you represent words that CONFUSION and SUPERSTITION became a tertiary consideration in bible writing.

    Further, the mindset of people WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND numbers leads to an inescapable muddling of writing about them.

    Example:

    And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. (1 Kings 7:23)

    The huge cast bronze basin in 1 Kings 7:23 was 10 cubits (note 1) in diameter and its circumference was 30 cubits, which is mathematically inaccurate. Almost any schoolboy knows that the circumference of a circle is not the diameter times 3, but rather, the diameter times a well-known constant called ("Pi"). 3.14159

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    I think you may have missed my point!

    It is in the act of representing quantity IN THE SAME WAY you represent words that CONFUSION and SUPERSTITION became a tertiary consideration in bible writing.

    Just like lots of things, it's contextually based. I agree it's a bad thing to base your life and religion on. I was just saying that because they are not represented in the same way we represent them today doesn't mean that there aren't numbers. That's like saying the numbers 1, 2, 4, 8 and 10 don't exist in spoken for because they sound phonetically like won, to (too), for (fore), ate and tin.

    But, your larger point is a good one.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Just like lots of things, it's contextually based. I agree it's a bad thing to base your life and religion on. I was just saying that because they are not represented in the same way we represent them today doesn't mean that there aren't numbers. That's like saying the numbers 1, 2, 4, 8 and 10 don't exist in spoken for because they sound phonetically like won, to (too), for (fore), ate and tin.

    But, your larger point is a good one.

    How Jehovah's Witnesses (or any "bible inerrancy" denomination) can make their case for divine authority is beyond me. They usually cop-out

    by hedging: "..in the originals.." knowing full well there are no originals in existence. It is an extraordinarily cynical assumption passed off as fact.

    The obsession of Jehovah's Witnesses with the date 1914 is fairly pathological both as a "computation based on the Bible" and as a lie being told so often it becomes "true."

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