Past, present, or future tense? WT denial of clear scriptural statements

by sd-7 6 Replies latest jw friends

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    One of the first things I noticed as out of place, long before I ever had any doubts at all about the teachings of JWs was the aforementioned--the Watchtower's ability to change scriptural statements made in the present tense to future tense, or statements made in the past tense to future tense, as necessary to serve the purposes of their doctrine.

    You're probably saying, "SD-7, you bi-polar bastard! Where's the proof for your crazy assertions?" I've got it right here.

    John 5:28, 29: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

    Did you notice that Jesus said "did" and "practiced", which are past tense terms, referring to acts that occurred in the past? This scripture made me feel afraid when I really looked at it as a JW. I thought, how can this be, that Jesus says 'practiced', but the Watchtower says that this is referring to FUTURE acts during a 1,000-year Judgment Day? Well, I ignored it, of course. As anyone would have under the circumstances.

    But is there any credence to the notion that people will be judged based on past actions, not future? In my reading of the Bible later on, I happened to encounter another scripture that shed light on the issue. 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile."

    The phrasing Paul uses is almost identical to John 5:28, 29. The context of 2 Corinthians 5 helps us appreciate that Paul is clearly referring to a hope of heavenly life, the hope of putting off this physical body and being given a heavenly one. Verse 8: "But we are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord." One can hardly say that in this context, being before the judgment seat of the Christ could possibly refer to humans who lived on earth for 1,000 years. Paul says that we must ALL be made manifest before the judgment seat of Christ. ALL.

    It occurred to me that the traditional Christian view of the resurrection might actually be true. Or that perhaps the real truth could be somewhere in between. Based on 1 Corinthians 15, my take on it is like so: first we die, then we are raised up as incorruptible beings to stand before Christ and be judged for what we did in our fleshly bodies. Simple. I'd be inclined to hold onto the notion that the soul isn't immortal, but that we get immortality through the resurrection. Jesus bought that for us, and through his own death and resurrection, he showed us exactly what it would be like. The physical body is refashioned into a spiritual one. For Jesus, perhaps this happened in a different manner, his fleshly body being changed over quickly into a spiritual one, not allowed to see corruption--hence why there was no body in the tomb. But it was a body of sorts because he could eat food with it, and acknowledged that he would 'drink the product of the vine in the kingdom of God'. (Presumably, though, we would hope that there is no spiritual bathroom business required...)

    Now maybe I'm tossing out more error myself, but hey, at least I'm not going to cut you off from your family if you refuse to believe it.

    My bottom-line point? The Society takes John 5:28, 29 and turns PAST TENSE into FUTURE TENSE. "did" and "practiced" become "will do" and "will practice". I could do another example, but I've talked enough already. Happy to hear your thoughts on this. Take care.

    SD-7

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    This is just one more of their games to tamper with the Bible to make it say what they want it to say.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello SD-7,

    Good stuff :)

    Here's a couple of things to add

    The context of 2 Corinthians 5 helps us appreciate that Paul is clearly referring to a hope of heavenly life, the hope of putting off this physical body and being given a heavenly one.

    How many "hopes" does the bible speak of?

    Ephesians 4:3-6 (New International Version)

    3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    How many types of body will be receive?

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (English Standard Version)

    51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

    Read about the resurrection body here 1 Corinthians 15 but bear this in mind.

    John 10:16 (New International Version)

    16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • Terry
    Terry

    Words are weasels.

    Watchtower gameplan: tamper with words.

    Religion is based on words.

    The words are attributed. Attributed to whom? Attributed to God.

    Who says? The Bible says.

    Is every word in the Bible the actual word spoken or "inspired?"

    WE CANNOT PROVE IT because the uncorrupt orignal autograph copies DO NOT EXIST anywhere!

    First generation copies DO NOT EXIST anywhere!

    Neither does the Ark of the covenant, the tablets of the Ten Commandments, the manna jar, Noah's ark, or original uncorrupt texts of any scripture whatsoever!!

    Yet--we all continue to parse words.

    Words....words...words....

    There are interpretations, tenses,translations,contextualizations and such everywhere and at at odds!

    BUT THERE ARE NO UNCORRUPT TEXTS to prove the words we are debating and arguing about WERE EVEN THERE in the first place!!

    The original autograph texts are the stuff of legend like unicorns and mermaids! Would you argue for their existence?

    You can't win an argument without a STANDARD. The STANDARD settles the dispute. A true standard is not INTERPRETABLE!

    Pi=3.14159...blah blah blah for everybody everywhere. No interpretations possible.

    Words from "scripture" are as elusive and malleable as the feeling of deja vu you think you have--but, might not.

    The Watchtower is not about IDEAS but about weasling words!

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    Terry--very valid point. Fact is, I'm just as willing to admit that we've no real way to verify any of the stuff in the Bible. So it is odd that we wage war over words we can't even verify, live our lives in fear of untestable assumptions about the world around us. I've been a victim of it myself, hence this post. Go figure.

    SD-7

  • Terry
    Terry

    Terry--very valid point. Fact is, I'm just as willing to admit that we've no real way to verify any of the stuff in the Bible. So it is odd that we wage war over words we can't even verify, live our lives in fear of untestable assumptions about the world around us. I've been a victim of it myself, hence this post. Go figure.

    SD-7

    For about the first TEN YEARS I was out of the Borg I still thought EXACTLY the same way I did as an active JW! Then, I morphed. I became a distortion of that belief. Then, I started reading as many non-fiction subjects as I could to shake loose from anything that might be interpretive religious opinions dressed up as Holy Spirit channeling!

    The MOMENTUM of thinking as a JW is almost impossible to countervene!

    The AUTHORITY tells us what to think and how to feel about it and it is forever settled (until new light changes it, of course :)

    Thinking for oneself does not come easily. Thinking in real time is a skill to be nurtured. Listening without prejudice is a virtue. But, arguing over the unprovable and elusive "words of scripture" is fooling oneself bigtime.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Terry,

    I love the way you keep hammering your point home, about the scriptures being copies of copies of copies that we do not have , let alone an original autograph.

    So it is a waste of time those guys arguing about the trinity etc, who can say ? please keep stressing this, it is the silver bullet to the WT, or any Christian religions, vampire.

    SD7, your point is well taken ,they do twist the words, and tenses, or simply claim a later fulfilment, as in the case of Daniel and the seven times, with no justification.

    Terry coined a phrase on another thread "Their theology is from cartoon land", how true.

    Love

    Wobble

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