St. Paul is in hell

by Rev BII 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Rev BII
    Rev BII

    Alternative titles for this document; “In Hell I Burn”, “Paul is in Hell” or “Sola Scriptura on Hell”.
    I keep hearing the crowds that claim to possess the Holy Spirit talking about their Sola Scriptura and scholarship insight. If this is true, why not use those wonderful gifts to examine what scriptures say on the issues of the connected false teachings of natural immortality of the soul and fiery burning hell instead of showing of as the 21st century’s prophets of Baal? Surely they must agree with me that if sinners will sleep forever instead of being tortured forever then it’s vile blasphemy against God to spread such teachings. The Gospel warns and fear is very important part of almost all church demonations / sects ministry so let’s not add more than needed .

    When we examine these issues it’s extremely important to do it in the light of Sola Scriptura, only draw our interpretations from what the scriptures say (what a mockery that Protestants use this word). We must understand that false doctrines lurk everywhere outside the Bible. We must be able to forget the Apokryphical Books, the Quran or whatever false religious book that directly and without any room for doubt speak of torment in hell. We must also, and here’s where lots of people fall, be able to look through all the fear and all the terror campaigns where men tell lies about the afterlife, in fact most religious people out there.

    So we must listen to the Bible and the Bible only. Agreed? SOLA SCRIPTURA! All the following quotes are from my study Bible, the ASV, American Standard Version. As you will notice, I don’t forget to bring up the most beloved verses of burning hell believers nor do I appeal to human emotion that it could never be in God’s intentions to torture people forever.

    Let’s start of with the natural immortal soul. According to almost all religions, man possesses an immortal soul by birth. This immortal soul goes on living after death. Is that thought found anywhere in the Bible? NOWHERE!

    Genesis 2:7And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

    1 Corinthians 15:45So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    Psalms 7:5let the enemy pursue me and overtake me, and let him trample my life to the ground, and lay my soul in the dust.

    Those that for some absurd reason claim Ecclesiastes’ statements can’t be taken as evidence should notice that the same thought is given in Genesis and confirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians. In Psalms we that the soul goes to dust with the body. A soul is simply an existence / a being, however sometimes in the NT spoken of seperatly from the body. In that sense the soul is the conscious existence / the personality of man while the body is the flesh and the spirit is the life breath from God. It doesn’t live on after death because it dies too, we are souls we don’t have souls with their own life. In connection with this we see that the soul gets hungry and show other human emotions just like the rest of the being.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

    Deuteronomy 12:20When Jehovah thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul desireth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, after all the desire of thy soul.

    Soul in Hebrew is called ‘nephesh’ and in Hebrew that word is used of animals too, ie. animals are souls too.

    Genesis 1:21And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Living ‘creature’ here is translated from ‘nephesh’.

    We see it in Revelations too, even translated probably here;

    Revelations 16:3And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea.

    No wonder that to the apostles, immortality wasn’t anything we have but something offered to us;

    Romans 2:7to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 2:8but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 2:9tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek 2:10but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

    2 Peter 1:4whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

    In the garden of Eden we see the exactly same thought;

    Genesis 3:22And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever- 3:23therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    Immortality is a reward, not something we possess or something God gives to anyone but those that he rewards. The teaching of the natural immortal soul is a false teaching taken from false religions.

    What is death? Something natural? No, death is the P-U-N-I-S-H-M-E-N-T for our inherited sin;

    Genesis 2:16And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Ezekiel 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Acts 3:23And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. (NOTE – this most beloved Bible, the NIV uses not surprisingly another word than soul. Souls that can be destroyed would be harmful to the teachings of Babylonian Christendom)

    As we know Adam ate and death therefore reigned but later immortality became available through Jesus’ blood, the sinfree one that laid his life for sinners gave us access through his death to Jehovah;

    Romans 5:8But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. 5:10For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 5:11and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 5:12Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- 5:13for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. 5:15But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

    Death is the opposite of life. Life is the opposite of death, not of pain.

    As death is the punishment for sin, eternal death is an eternal punishment. Therefore Jesus says of the goats;

    Matthew 25:46And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

    Same in Daniel;

    Daniel 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Is has surprised many with their heads filled with Babylonian teachings that the realm of death, ‘Sheol’ in the OT is described as a place of sleep;

    Psalms 6:1O Jehovah, rebuke me not in thine anger, Neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure. 6:2Have mercy upon me, O Jehovah; for I am withered away: O Jehovah, heal me; for my bones are troubled. 6:3My soul also is sore troubled: And thou, O Jehovah, how long? 6:4Return, O Jehovah, deliver my soul: Save me for thy lovingkindness' sake. 6:5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee thanks?

    Psalms 30:9What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the Pit? Will the dust praise thee? Will it tell of thy faithfulness?

    Job 3:11Why died I not from the womb? Why did I not give up the ghost when my mother bare me? 3:12Why did the knees receive me? Or why the breast, that I should suck? 3:13For now should I have lain down and been quiet; I should have slept; then had I been at rest, 3:14With kings and counsellors of the earth, Who built up waste places for themselves; 3:15Or with princes that had gold, Who filled their houses with silver: 3:16Or as a hidden untimely birth I had not been, As infants that never saw light. 3:17There the wicked cease from troubling; And there the weary are at rest. 3:18There the prisoners are at ease together; They hear not the voice of the taskmaster. 3:19The small and the great are there: And the servant is free from his master. 3:20Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, And life unto the bitter in soul; 3:21Who long for death, but it cometh not, And dig for it more than for hid treasures; 3:22Who rejoice exceedingly, And are glad, when they can find the grave?

    Ecclesiastes 3:20All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun

    Ecclesiastes 9:10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

    Psalms 88:5Cast *off among the dead, Like the slain that lie in the grave, Whom thou rememberest no more, And they are cut off from thy hand. 88:6Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, In dark places, in the deeps.

    In the NT we see that Paul looks upon death as a sleep in Hades/Sheol, a sleep Jesus also went too for a short period;

    Acts 2:29Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. 2:30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; 2:31he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 2:32This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear. 2:34For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.

    Psalms 16:10For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

    Mark 8:31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

    1 Corinthians 15:5and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; 15:6then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;

    1 Corinthians 15:12Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: 15:14and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain. 15:15Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised. 15:16For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: 15:17and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 15:18Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

    Notice that Paul doesn’t expect to go to heaven when he dies instead he await the resurrection;

    1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 15:54But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 15:55O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 15:56The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 15:57but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Of the resurrection from Hades/Hell/Sheol David writes;

    1 Samuel 2:6Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.

    The enemy has tried to find verses that speak of eternal torment in death in the OT but they all come out poor;

    Malachi 4:1For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 4:2But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 4:3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

    Isaiah 51:7Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye dismayed at their revilings. 51:8For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool; but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation unto all generations.

    Isaiah 66:22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. 66:23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. 66:24And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Thessalonians 1:8rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 1:9who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

    As for Malachi, Isaiah 51:7-8 and Thessalonians 1:8-9 (yes not OT I know but I think it fit in well) any sober mind read that the enemies will be destroyed, they will literally or symbolic be burned up/eaten up, quit logically not for eternity but for a short period. I comment Isaiah 66:22-24 a few lines below. This is fully in light with David’s look on God’s anger and his view on the afterlife again;

    Psalms 30:2O Jehovah my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 30:3O Jehovah, thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol; Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. 30:4Sing praise unto Jehovah, O ye saints of his, And give thanks to his holy memorial name. 30:5For his anger is but for a moment; His favor is for a life-time: Weeping may tarry for the night, But joy cometh in the morning.

    His anger is for a moment = his anger = the process of destruction leading to eternal death
    His favour for a lifetime = eternal life

    Notice also Amos words;

    Amos 9:1I saw the Lord standing beside the altar: and he said, Smite the capitals, that the thresholds may shake; and break them in pieces on the head of all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: there shall not one of them flee away, and there shall not one of them escape. 9:2Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them; and though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down. 9:3And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and it shall bite them.

    Sheol is a place of rest. If God want people to experience his anger against them and they have died or killed themselves, he will resurrect them to his angered judgement, because in death there’s no consciousness. It’s like sleep, a perishment as punishment for sin. In almost all cases God in the OT punishes people with reasonably instant death. One of the exceptions is found in 1st Samuel 5:6 where the Philistines are smoted with tumors for their blasphemy against the ark. Here we see an example of longer lasting pain but still in earthly life.

    In Isaiah 66:22-24 we read dead bodies, we notice that it is the worm and the fire that lives on, not the men. People will look on the dead bodies of God’s enemies and on these bodies the worm/fire will be eternal. Here’s it’s good to realise how the Bible uses the eternal fire as a symbol of eternal destruction;

    Isaiah 34:8For Jehovah hath a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 34:9And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 34:10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

    Of Babylon in Revelations;

    Revelations 18:8Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her. 18:9And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning,

    Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;

    Revelation 19:3"Once more they cried, "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

    Another fine example is regarding Sodom and Gomorrah where the Bible clearly shows how eternal fire is eternal destruction;

    Genesis 19:24Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; 19:25and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

    2 Pete 2:6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;

    Jude 1:7Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

    Just as cities burn eternally symbolic although they are destroyed, we now see the true meaning of these scary verses from Revelations;

    Revelation 14: 9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

    It’s really pretty logic. Like the holy angels and the lamb would stand and watch them be tortured for eternity. The same symbolic language is used of the destruction of men. Besides, a prison keeper was called a tormentor in these days and this is eternity in the prison of death, ‘he’ will keep them there for eternity.

    The hebrew ‘Sheol’ in the OT is the same as ‘Hades’ in the NT. The Lake of fire however is the eternal death, the death without Christ. Hades/Sheol is the place all enter after death. It will be emptied.

    Revelations 20:13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 20:15And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    We see the same thought in 2 Pete. The ungodly suffer the severe punishment of death until the judgement;

    2 Pete 2:9the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgement;

    Jesus uses the same symbolic language when he talks of ‘hell’ which in Greek here is ‘Gehenna’ the same as the Lake of fire. The worms makes one think of Isaiah 66:24. Remember how much both Jesus and the apostles quoted from the OT.

    Mark 9:43And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. 9:44where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:45And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell. 9:46where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:47And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell; 9:48where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire. 9:50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost its saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace one with another.

    What Jesus is speaking of here is the grave danger of going into the Lake of fire from where there will be no resurrection, the death without Christ’s ransoming blood. In light with this Jesus says;

    Matthew 10:28And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    The Greek word used here is Gehenna, not Hades. Be afraid of him that can kill you eternally, not men. Body and soul goes to dust as showed earlier. It’s important to be written in the book of life if not you are perished forever.

    Revelations 20:12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:14And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 20:15And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

    What about the ‘gnashing of teeth’ Jesus speak of?

    Matthew 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 13:48which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away. 13:49So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 13:50and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 22:1And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying, 22:2The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, 22:3and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come. 22:4Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast. 22:5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise; 22:6and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. 22:7But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. 22:8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy. 22:9Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast. 22:10And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests. 22:11But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: 22:12and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 22:13Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 22:14For many are called, but few chosen.

    Just like in passages in Matthew 24-25 and Luke 13, Jesus speak of ‘gnashing of teeth’. These verses refer to the wicked getting their judgement at the judgement seat. Those who transgressed against God like the Pharisees will not get the reward they imagine they will, instead they will see what they have missed and then weep and gnash their teeth. Matthew 13 tells the same as Matthew 25:31-46. Notice how Matthew 22:7 seem to refer of Roman destruction of Jerusalem where the Pharisees killed Jesus. Matthew 22:1-14 refer to the special exalted role the chosen saints of God will get, to this many are called but few chosen in contrast to the common salvation of all faithful obedient to the light/biblical insight given to them which today is huge as the Bible is to common access;

    Revelations 21:5And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. 21:6And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 21:8But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

    Finally let’s look at the only passage that describes conscious torment after death (without people with preconceptious minds putting a meaning into the verse);

    Luke 16:19Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: 16:20and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, 16:21and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. 16:23And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 16:24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame. 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish. 16:26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. 16:27And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house; 16:28for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 16:29But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 16:30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent. 16:31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

    Now, does these verses contradict the Biblical teachings? This story has given cause for countless false teachings and thoughts. Various hell’s and paradise’s where people are conscious until the judgement and even worse, various places in the underworld where people conscious await their pretty pointless judgement as judgement is already given. The Bible doesn’t back up such ideas anywhere else and they must be rejected. In this sense the incorrect rendering of Jesus’ words to the thief must be noted;

    Luke 23:43And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise. (ASV)

    The hope is the day of resurrection as the soul goes to dust after death. The thief will be “with Jesus” at the resurrection when this world ends and the Kingdom is established..

    The correct translation (fully grammatically allowed just not in Babylonian agenda);
    Luke 23:43And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

    Back to the Lazarus story. Note that these people enter Hades – the place of sleep. Note that they get their reward not according to if they die in Christ or not but out of simple emotional justice. Hades is not the Lake of fire, it’s the same as Sheol. Lazarus whose name means ‘God has helped’ sits in “Abraham’s bosom” and along with him watch the evil rich man burn. All the unbiblical conditions of this scenario tells us that it’s as much a parable as any other only Jesus doesn’t explain this one nor those anyone comment on it the Bible. The whole NT ministry tells us that we must believe in order to be saved. In that aspect, we don’t get saved out of justice and pity. However, a very important thing occurred that was granted to the ‘poor’ without their knowledge (at that time) or acceptance; the Jews as a nation failed to keep the Law and therefore their future blessings where given to Jews and Gentiles that believed in the blood of Jesus as mediator between them and Jehovah and where obedient to the Gospel (Romans 2-7). It’s this birthright given to and later taken from one group of people and given to another group of people this parable describes. It doesn’t deal with the obedience of the individual, therefore it doesn’t say anything about the poor man having faith. The parable also show how the elitist Pharisees didn’t come to Jesus because their hearts like the other astray Jews were far away from him even though they saw him raise up dead people (Luke 16:31), they even tried to kill someone he raised.

    Matthew 15:7Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 15:8This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. 15:9But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

    Now the fire is ceased.

    Now what is left is to deal with is a few verses that appear difficult to some;

    1 Samuel 28:15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 28:16And Samuel said, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing Jehovah is departed from thee, and is become thine adversary? 28:17And Jehovah hath done unto thee, as he spake by me: and Jehovah hath rent the kingdom out of thy hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David. 28:18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of Jehovah, and didst not execute his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath Jehovah done this thing unto thee this day. 28:19Moreover Jehovah will deliver Israel also with thee into the hand of the Philistines; and to-morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: Jehovah will deliver the host of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.

    The above verses show Saul contacting what appears to be the spirit of Samuel. He gives advice to Saul although God forbid his people to try contact the death. They can’t contact the death but they do practices that turn them away from God.

    Exodus 22:18Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live.

    Leviticus 19:31Turn ye not unto them that have familiar spirits, nor unto the wizards; seek them not out, to be defiled by them: I am Jehovah your God.

    Deuteronomy 18:10There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, 18:11or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 18:12For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

    So Saul transgressed against the Law. The woman expected to be killed too when Saul found her. So God punished him.

    In regards of spirits we see;

    1 Samuel 16:13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of Jehovah came mightily upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. 16:14Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him.

    1 Samuel 16:23And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took the harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

    God ordered this evil spirit to harm Saul, it was God’s will that Saul should die. This spirit acted as Samuel.

    Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. 16:28Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 17:1And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 17:2and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light. 17:3And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. 17:4And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. 17:5While he was yet speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 17:6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 17:7And Jesus came and touched them and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 17:8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, save Jesus only. 17:9And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead. 17:10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come? 17:11And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things: 17:12but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them. 17:13Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    The disciples received a vision. Jesus was the fullfillment of the prophecies of the redeemer and God’s Son, the disciples received more proof than they could ask for. They were the once Jesus spoke of in verse 16:28. Additional Jesus says that none has ascended to heaven, therefor not Elijah either when he died. Elijah received a honourable death without dying of old age or being violently killed, just like Enoch.

    John 3:13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

    Revelations 6:9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 6:11And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

    This prophecy show how these saints (a soul = a person) that died fully in Christ await the Kingdom. There they will be resurrected. They were not resurrected after Jesus’ death. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15 that all sleep until the Kingdom.

    1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 15:26The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 15:27For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 15:28And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

    Burning hell where wicked immortal souls are kept and/or tortured for eternity is unscriptural. There are no souls living on forever without being made immortal as a reward. Obvious when you unknowing of the whole read a few verses it could seem like these false teachings were true. Another reason is that people read the Gospel’s while being uneducated in the whole Bible. It’s a shame and a blasphemous disgrace that people keep on telling these lies. Such people that claim to know the Bible being preachers or scholars and spread these lies will get the fate they deserve at Christ’s coming or if they are dead, at the judgement as the prophets of Baal when Jesus returns on that hour only his Father, Jehovah knows. Such verses also tell us that it’s not enough merely to believe, ie. to feel assured about what you know as the truth. It’s by believing we achieve the opportunity but it’s by our fruits we show ourselves worthy.

    1 Kings 18:40and Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

    Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 7:16By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    God Bless

  • ElijahTheThird

    Rev Bill;
    Some of your posts have a bit if interesting observation in them, and some good info. You do make some good points. But for the most part THEY GET LOST IN YOUR RHETORIC! rofl.

    Do you get paid by the word?

    I do like to find interesting points, but I am not into reading "books" and volumes of rehash,,, could you give me what ever it was you were trying to say here in just under 100 words?

  • Rev BII
    Rev BII

    It needed to be long. Telling of the Bible's view on the doctrines of natural immortality and burning hell. I have the view that it only matters what the OT and NT says. I think it's very important to refute eternal existance as punishment.

    2 Timothy 1:10 - and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

  • butalbee

    Are you just a hollow shell of a man? Spiritually empty, with no essense of being, no conscience? Because that is what you are insisting by stating you do not have a soul. Not that I am saying it is immortal, because we are humans not Gods. Where does witnesses get this crap on immortal soul anyway if it is not in the bible, per se. Oh, yeah, that's right, they make it up as they go along.

  • butalbee

    Sheol: Noun. The abode of the dead or of departed spirits. Hell.

    Ofcourse your eyes only see WT literature, but you would find a definition close to this one in every dictionary in every library in the world.

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