Creation of the Earth...

by Aaron2 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Aaron2
    Aaron2

    Here's somthing that I've been trying to get feed back on...
    Well, here's what I believe...I thought it might be interesting to some of you...
    In my Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, nickname Mormons), We believe that the Creation was done by Jehova (aka The pre-Jesus Christ). We do not believe in the docrtine of Trinity as most other religions do, namely that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 1 person, with just three different roles. We believe they are three separate person with one purpose.
    Now we believe that in the Beginning, Jehova created the earth, under the direction of his father, being God the Father (or Elohim) ( http://scriptures.lds.org/bdg/god ). We know that others may have helped, atleast we know that Michael the Archangel helped in the creation under Jehova. My purpose for this post is that I know most people probably do not believe this because in the Bible it say's " IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1). It say's God, not God's, or God and someone else. However, in the Hebrew writings of it, the word God is a plural word. Don said that it is a plural word, but that it is mean to be used in the singular sense. Well...I wouldn't argue that...but I wouldn't accept it either...yet...without more study. But my question is in regards to this verse that say's "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:..." (Genesis 1:26) ( http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/1/26#26 ). Why does it say "Our...Our...Us??? if it's just God, or just Jehovah? I would use that as proof to back up my claim, however, I'm interested to findout what others think of this verse too, or how they would translate it. Thanks..

    Sincerely Aaron2.

    PS. I know this is not trivial or anything...Just interested in what others think.

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Hello Aaron2,

    From what I understand the scripture to say as far as Genesis 1:26, God in Hebrew is Elohim, and when he said let (us) make man in our image, it is possible God was refering to his heavenly court or his angels. Read Gen 3:5 God knows in fact the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil.

    Verse 22: And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of (us) knowing good and evil.

    This does not leave out the possibility that God himself was also refering to Jesus when he said (us).

    I agree with Don in the fact that Elohim is always used in the singular when refering to the true God.

    I always thought Elohim and Jehovah were one in the same name.
    Isaiah 43:10 No god was formed before me, nor will be after me.
    Yahweh or Jehovah is speaking here. This leaves no room for Elohim to be the Father of Jehovah but for Elohim to be Jehovah.

    Sincerely, Scorpion

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    I too agree with Don. From what I remember, Elohim in the plural sense applied to Jehovah not in the plurality of personalities, but rather in the amount of splendor and grandeur he possesses, which set him apart from gods of other nations. The term Elohim suggests he's worthy of at least double honor.

    GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Aaron

    Elohim is a very general word which is made up of two hebrew words: elo=goddess, and him-plural masculine. Elohim is translated in a few different ways, including goddess in 2 places. Following is a longer explanation of elohim..

    -------

    ELAH

    Much the same comment may be made on this word as on the foregoing; the word is very similar indeed, and is applied to the true God and to the false gods of the nations, as the extracts in the summary have been selected to show.

    ELOHIM

    Probably no word has been the subject of so much discussion as this word. Dr. Robert Young, in general with other authorities, defines its meaning as "God, gods, objects of worship"; that is, the word is used designatory of God Himself, of the heathen gods, of angels, and also of the minor positions held among rulers of nations.

    One of the greatest authorities on the Hebrew language -- Gesenius -- makes the following comments under the heading of this word in the Hebrew-English Lexicon:

    ELOHIM-plural of ELOAH.

    "Of gods or deities in general, whether true or false: the gods of the Egyptians (Exodus xii. 12). "Strange gods" (Gen. xxxv. 2-4; Deut. xxix. 18). "New gods" (Deut. xxxii. 17). Sometimes from the more common popular usage, Jehovah and idols are comprehended under this common name (Psalm lxxxvi. 8). "There is none like unto thee among the gods, O Jehovah" (Exodus xviii. 11). Elsewhere the idea of divinity is altogether denied to idols and is attributed to Jehovah alone (Isaiah xliv. 6). "Besides me there is no god" (Isaiah xlv. 5, 14, 21; x1vi. 9). Once applied to kings (Psalm lxxxii. 1, 6)

    NOTE.-Not a few interpreters both ancient and modern have regarded Elohim as also denoting angels (see Psalm v. 6; Psalm lii.1; xcvii. 7; cxxxviii. 1), and judges (Exodus xxi. 6; xxii. 7, 8). This opinion is discussed and refuted at length in Thess. p. 95. (But Heb. i. 16, ii. 7-9, shows plainly that this word sometimes means angels, and the authority of the New Testament decides the matter.

    "Very often of an idol, a god of the Gentiles" (Exodus xxxii. 1), "make us a god," i.e., an idol (1 Sam. v. 7) "Dagon our god" (2 Kings i., 2,3,6,16). Even used as a goddess (1 Kings xi. 5). The god of anyone is the god whom anyone worships, whom he has as his domestic gods. Jonah i. 5, "Every one called upon his god." (Ruth i. 16; Gen. xvii. 7, 8; xxviii. 2 1). Thus the God of the Israelites is Jehovah."

    A very comprehensive definition, precisely confirming the definition as given by Dr. Young. Whenever the word "God" as representative of "Elohim" occurs, the meaning, whether applied to the God of Israel or to the gods of the heathen, is simply "mighty ones"; as also in other instances which Gesenius gives, it has been translated "angels" and "judges"; the meaning still is purely "mighty ones."

    This definition illustrates the peculiar combination of words by which God has chosen to reveal Himself. Frequently the words "JEHOVAH THY ELOHIM" appear (e.g., Deut. x. 14) and apart from the meaning which Elohim bears, would be quite unintelligible. Jehovah was Israel's mighty one. In precisely the same manner as the heathen had "mighty ones," so Israel had a "mighty one," but their "mighty one" was the Eternal Creator of heaven and earth.

    "Blessed is the nation whose Elohim is YAHWEH" (Psalm xxxiii. 12).
    "YAHWEH is the true Elohim -- he is the living Elohim, and an everlasting King" (Jer. X. 10).

    Several further authorities may be quoted to confirm the meaning of this word. Two representative writers have been chosen:

    DEAN STANLEY:

    "In the Patriarchal age we have already seen that the oldest Hebrew form by which the most general idea of Divinity is expressed is 'El-Elohim,' 'The Strong One,' 'The Strong Ones,' 'The Strong.' " -Jewish Church, p. 110.

    CALMET:

    "Angels, princes, great men, judges, and even false gods are sometimes called Elohim. It is the same as Eloa: one being singular, the other plural." -Dictionary of the Bible, Article "Elohi, Eloi, Elohim."

    Many are the instances which could be quoted to prove that no basis may possibly be discovered in this word to support the doctrine of the Trinity: but a few will be noted of the hundreds available, and the famous instance in Gen. i. 26 urged by Trinitarians will be examined.

    The gods of the heathen, "of Baalzebub, the god of Ekron" (2 Kings i. 2), "Dagon their god" (Judges xvi. 23), "Ashteroth the goddess of the Zidonians" (1 Kings xi. 5), and the "gods ascending out of the earth " (1 Sam. xxviii. 13) that the witch of Endor declared she saw; all illustrate how general this word is applied. . . In some two hundred and forty cases it is applied to heathen deities.

    In the account of Creation as given in Genesis this word "Elohim" is the original of the word "God." This is a plural noun, and in a few instances a plural verb occurs in conjunction with it, but in a great many cases the verb is singular.

    The passage referred to of Gen. i. 26 so frequently quoted in all its solitariness is:
    "And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image."

    From this expression Trinitarians assume support for their doctrine of Three Persons in the Godhead. The reason of assuming Three Persons is not apparent, for the word may convey the idea of any number. However, a close examination, even when the evidence of the almost innumerable statements against the doctrine are ignored, reveals that the verse supports no such doctrine, but is indeed a simple account of the Creation work at the hands of the angels of God. That the translation of the word "angel" from Elohim is fully authorised there can be no doubt in view of the testimony of Gesenius and the confirmation of the New Testament, which he alludes to; and if they be not accepted then the translation by the word itself in Psalm viii. 5 must finally decide the question.

    The work of Creation is described many times in the Old Testament. One of the most picturesque accounts is recorded in the Book of Job, chapter xxxviii.:

    "Then the LORD (YAHWEH) answered Job, and said. . . . Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding (or knowledge). Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God (Elohim) shouted for joy."

    Obviously the "us" of Gen. i. 26, were the Elohim, and the Elohim were the "sons of God," the angels who worked God's will.

    Further evidence that this passage in Genesis i. 26, cannot allow of the Trinity, is apparent at the time of the Fall of Man, when the Elohim of Yahweh declare:
    "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen. iii. 22).

    Who would affirm that God -- the Trinity -- knew (i.e., had experienced) evil?

    Truly the meaning of the word Elohim is apparent and simple; it stands for the angels of God, who now await the commands of their Creator; and of those in the future, who at the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, shall by reason of their redemption in Him, be "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter i. 4), and will then be "equal unto the angels" (i.e., become Elohim) (Luke xx. 36), to be the "ministers of their God" for evermore (Psalm ciii. 21).

    Many scholars not only affirm that this word gives no countenance to the doctrine of the Trinity at all, but ridicule the arguments for it based thereon. The following are a few instances:

    DR. SIR WM. SMITH, Dictionary of the Bible, Art., "Jehovah":
    "With regard to Elohim, the other chief name (than Jehovah) by which the Deity is designated in the Old Testament, it has been held by many, and the opinion does not even now want supporters, that in the plural form of the word was shadowed forth the plurality of persons in the godhead, and the mystery of the Trinity was inferred therefrom. Such, according to Peter Lombard, was the true significance of Elohim. But Calvin, Mercer, Drusius, and Bellarmine, have given the weight of their authority against an explanation so fanciful and arbitrary. Among the Jewish writers of the middle ages the question much more nearly approached its solution. R. Jehuda Hallevi (12th century) the author of the book Cozri, found in the usage of Elohim a protest against idolators, who call each personified power Eloah, and all collectively Elohim. He interpreted it as the most general name of the Deity, distinguishing Him as manifested in the exhibition of His powers, without reference to His personality or moral qualities, or to any special relation which He bears to man. Jehovah, on the contrary, is the revealed and known God."

    BISHOP COLENSO. The Pentateuch, part ii. p. 256:

    "The word Elohim is a plural noun; it is the general name for Deity in the Hebrew language, and may be used, accordingly, for a heathen god. Upon this word KUENEN observes, p. 62:
    "' . . . It is enough that Elohim, by virtue of its original meaning, is used to denote Deity in general.'

    "It is, therefore, quite a mistake to think of proving the doctrine of the Trinity, as some do, from the fact that Elohim is a plural name. . . . And, as above mentioned, it is used of an idol, Dagon (1 Sam. v. 7); Astarte (1 Kings xi. 5); Baalzebub (2 Kings i. 2, 3, 6); as of the true God. . . . Thus we have 'a cruel lords' (Elohim) (Isaiah xix. 4)

    KITTO, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, Article, "God":
    "An old opinion is that the peculiarity in question (the usage of a plural noun with a singular verb) was determined by dogmatical considerations: that as God has revealed Himself in His word as subsisting in Trinity, One yet Three, it is as corresponding to this revealed fact that a plural designation of Him, construed as if it were singular, is employed in Scripture. . . . This has found few supporters among the scholars, and has been formally repudiated by several who were strongly attached to Trinitarian views, e.g., Calvin, Drusius, Bellarmine, Buxtorf, Hottinger."

    SIXTUS SENENSIS, Biblotheca Sanctor, Lib. V., Annot 1:
    "With the exception of Peter of Lombardy, and Paul of Burgos, there has not been amongst the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew writers, one commentator worthy of imitation who has explained the word Elohim, of the Trinity."

    ELOAH

    This word is the singular form of Elohim, and is applied to the heathen deities indiscriminately with the application to the true God of Israel.

    Gesenius affirms that it is used:
    " . . . of any God (Dan. xi. 37-39; 2 Chron. xxxii. 15).
    The comments and the extracts of the previous word may with equal force be read in reference to this word "Eloah."

  • Aaron2
    Aaron2

    How did all you guys get here??? Do you post here normally? I thought it odd to see you all here....HA ha ha...LOL

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Interesting post. Just for the sake of the record, I'll post the radical spiritualist view of this.

    Basically, Satan is identified in scripture as the beautiful angel who also set a "pattern". This angel is believed to be one of the two specific angels depicted on top of the cover of the Ark of the Covenant, hence Satan is also referred to as a "covering cherub". There are just two "covering cherubs". One is the one that would become Satan, the other is Michael, the archangel, of course, later to become Jesus. How cozy.

    The imagery on the temple curtains of these two angels are alternating between a cherub with the face of a man, always a representation of the "son of man" and a reference to Michael/Jesus and the other a palm tree. With this symbolism, therefore, the companionship of these two special angels serving on symbolic holy Mount Zion, are believed to be like husband and wife, man and woman.

    Thus, when God said, "Let US make man in our image...male and female", he was speaking to both the angel Lucifer and Michael. Thus indeed, we see mankind created in the form of a man and a woman. In addition, these angelic beings are represented as trees as well. The tree of life being the man, Jesus, and the tree of knowledge symbolic of the woman. Likewise, Adam was symbolic of Jesus' image and Eve that of the "womanly role" of Satan. Thus, you have the association of the Tree of Knowledge with the beauty of Satan, his/her great wisdom and sophistication, and Eve. Thus the trusting voice Eve heard may very well have been the voice of a woman.

    But things went wrong in the garden and there was a rebellion of this woman, Satan. Thus, when God decreed that he would put "enmity between YOU and the woman and between YOUR SEED and her seed" he was speaking to the invisible angel present, Michael, and his reference to the "woman" was in reference to Michael's invisible wife, Satan, called here "woman". Obviously, Satan (the woman) and his seed and Jesus and his seed would battle it out over time; good vs evil.

    With all that said, it seems somewhat apparent if not suggested that when the Creator said, "Let's make man in OUR image...male and female", it was based upon the pattern of these two angels, the man and the palm tree, the palm tree representing a feminine nature.

    As a final note, this would also be the first record of a LEGAL DIVORCE when Michael got divorced from Satan. But he would not be lonely long. Already having fallen in love with mankind, his new Bride, the symbolic 144,000 would become his new wife. Only this time, his new wife would have to prove her faithfulness first, to the death, before becoming Christ's Bride. No more surprises for Jesus in the marital department.

    Also, "god" is a term referred to many things glorious including the members of the bride class and angels, as so noted (2 Thess 2:4), so it's quite a common term, but in it's most extreme sense, a singular reference to the ultimate god, the Creator, in deference to the ultimate god-Lord, Jesus Christ. Satan is called the "god of this system of things", etc.

    Cheerio.

    L.G.

  • Bang
    Bang

    From Aaron2

    We do not believe in the docrtine of Trinity as most other religions do, namely that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 1 person, with just three different roles. We believe they are three separate person with one purpose.

    I think you may find that the doctrine of the trinity also holds God to be three persons.

    We know that others may have helped
    May have, how so ? They do help to create the new earth.
    ------------------------------------

    From Scorpion

    I agree with Don in the fact that Elohim is always used in the singular when refering to the true God.
    Singular use doesn't necessarily imply one person, only one God.
    ------------------------------------

    From Saint Satan

    Obviously the "us" of Gen. i. 26, were the Elohim, and the Elohim were the "sons of God,"
    It's not obvious, it's a postulation.

    Further evidence that this passage in Genesis i. 26, cannot allow of the Trinity, is apparent at the time of the Fall of Man, when the Elohim of Yahweh declare:
    "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen. iii. 22).
    Who would affirm that God -- the Trinity -- knew (i.e., had experienced) evil?
    Of course, the Trinity had experienced evil. The snake had already spoken deceptively to the woman God had created, but unlike the man, God wasn't deceived and knew clearly what was evil and what wasn't - the man didn't, and suffered a spiritual death, "but the woman you gave me". He couldn't be allowed to live forever in such a state, it's an abomination, and not right for his dignity.

    Whether 'Elohim' may be used to refer to many makes little difference to the doctrine of the Trinity. Basically, three people are revealed to be the source of light / life - the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus - that's the doctrine of the Trinity.
    ------------------------------------

    And from Lars,

    Only this time, his new wife would have to prove her faithfulness first, to the death, before becoming Christ's Bride. No more surprises for Jesus in the marital department.
    Jesus, the JW fornicating and trading beast.

    the bride class
    I really can't get my head around JW class talk, I find it really repulsive.

    Bang

  • OICU8it2
    OICU8it2

    The plural of majesty is used here. The "us" is God talking to Jesus (Michael). Jesus was referred to as a master worker. One verse talks of him "playing with nature" in the beginning creation of earth. Jesus was the one thru whom all created things were made (I think even the angels) other than himself. The earth and this universe weren't the first creation of God. "In the beginning" refers to the beginning of the creation of the earth and its surrounding sky.

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