Why 607 is a fallacy.

Hobo Ken

Below is an email to my brother and my mother which I just sent tonight.

Matt

Hi, Hope you are doing okay.

Just thought you may want to ask yourself how this scripture applies in JW doctrines?

(Revelation 12:5-6) 5" And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. "

*** rev climax chap. 27 p. 184 par. 26 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***

26 How long did this respite for the seed of God’s woman last? Revelation 12:6 says 1,260 days. Revelation 12:14 calls the period a time, times, and half a time; in other words, three and a half times. In fact, both expressions stand for three and a half years, extending in the Northern Hemisphere from the spring of 1919 to the autumn of 1922 . This was a period of refreshing recuperation and reorganization for the restored John class.

Do you notice how the Current teaching from the book JW's have just studied recently, applies it?

This book says it applies to a literal period of time during the early part of the last century. But I would ask you does this 1260 days (or 3 and a half times) sound familiar?
It should because the 7 times (or Gentile times) chronology is built squarely on top of it. Without this one scripture there is no 2520 days, no 7 times and no 1914. So why have the Governing Body said that this was fulfilled in the above quote?

Moreover does it seem reasonable to apply this VERY SAME scripture to a period supposedly beginning some 2500 years in the past (607 B.C.E.) and then give another completely unrelated application of it in a modern day setting (1919-1922)?

Where is the scriptural imperative that allows for anyone to do this?

I'm sure you realise the importance of Jehovah's Witnesses 1914 doctrine. Without they have no special meaning and no special message to deliver.
The way that 1914 is arrived at is completely arbitrary from a Biblical perspective, but this is overlooked by all who profess to believe, as the "appointment" of the WTBTS and it's leaders is solely contingent on them being correct about this belief.

Do your self a favour and find one, just one, modern scholar who is not connected with Jehovah's Witnesses who will agree with the Watchtower date of 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon.

I can assure you that it is impossible.

The truth is hard to take, but that does not mean it's the not the truth, and wanting or needing something to be true when it plainly isn't does not make it any less of a lie.
Matt.

iknowall558

NewYork44M

Years ago when I stumbled on this issue. You articulate the problem with this scripture well. How can on one hand you apply it literally, and then on the other hand you use the same scripture as a basis for a day for a year?

It is a hard concept to grasp, but I think a signficant piece that disproves the whole 6071914 concept.

besty

But I would ask you does this 1260 days (or 3 and a half times) sound familiar?
It should because the 7 times (or Gentile times) chronology is built squarely on top of it. Without this one scripture there is no 2520 days, no 7 times and no 1914. So why have the Governing Body said that this was fulfilled in the above quote?

Maybe I'm being as blonde as your current hairstyle Matt but can you provide a WTS quote linking Rev 12:6 with 607 to 1914?

One other thing to add to your challenge:

Tell them if they can find a secular source for 607 you will show them from WTS literature 587 is the only possible date. Clue - you can keep your side of the deal, they can't :-)

Hobo Ken

>Besty

Hi , this is on the Official JW site right now where they make the link to the scripture in Rev12. 6 and the 1914 dogma.

Also this frm the Bible teach book:-

*** bh p. 216 par. 1 - p. 217 par. 4 1914-A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy ***This happened in 607 B.C.E

How and when, though, did God's rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? . when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah's throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling' go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem's last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one's until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling' would end when Jesus became King.

When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."-Daniel 4:10-16.

In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God's rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem' would be temporary-a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?

Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling' on God's rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem's fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God's heavenly King.-Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

I'm trying to keep it down to one scripture and asking them to supply one secular modern quote.

Matt

White Dove

Yeah, 587 BC was the only year found in the history books and on line for the fall of Jerusalem. I Googled 607 BC and found nothing. That year has no significance in history at all. If it did, it would have showed up somewhere. There were so many 587 BC's that I couldn't read all of them, but not even one 607. Look up 1914 and you will get only jw's.

besty

ok Matt - so 1260 days (Rev 12:6 = 1260 days or 3.5 times (Rev 12:14) = the number of literal calendar days between spring 1919 -> Autumn 1922

so therefore

7 times (Daniel 4) = 2520 days = day for a year = 2520 years = 607 -> 1914

My take on this is that the WTS are lifting a mathematical rule from Rev 12:6,14 and applying it to the 7 times of Daniel. (sidepoint - arbitrarily connecting the 7 times of Daniel to the Gentile times of Jesus)

I wouldn't say the WTS are applying Rev 12:6,14 to the 2520 years between 607 and 1914. Rather they are applying a mathematical relationship between 'times' and 'days'.

Explain it to me though in case I'm missing something obvious.....

Hobo Ken

The point of the original post is that the scripture in Rev 12:6 stands alone in it's application within the Revelation Climax book.

No other application is made with reference to the book of Daniel and the seven times mentioned there.

You are right on the money when you say that the wts are treating this verse as part of a mathematical equation.

It's as though the mention of the expression "times" in both Daniel and Revelation allows them to interpret the 3 and a half times in Rev12:6 as being linked to the seven times of Daniel i.e. 3.5x2 = 7.

The point I made in the email was there is no Biblical imperative to do what they have done here.

And they ARE applying Rev 12:6 to the 607-1914 dogma, it's just as you correctly state that they are using it as part of a maths equation rather than the usual prophetic route.

They then go one step further and use the supposed "day for a year" rule to make the 2520 figure into years as though again the Bible sanctions this.

What relationship does Numbers 14 and Ezekiel 4 (both day for year) have with the book of Daniel and revelation? Nothing , other than the relationship the wts want them to have in relation to their 1914 dogma.

They expect their members and the general public, as evidenced by their current web page, to buy into the idea that God is a bit like Dan Brown and has placed some hidden number codes in the Bible which would only be discovered by Russell et al in the late 19th century.......

The Davinci Code is more believable.

Matt.

Why 607 is a fallacy.

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