The Kingdom of God - when in Heaven ? -- according to Jesus

by wantingtruth 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    In order for us to understand the weight of Jesus words , which words were contradicted by WTS

    (and we were educated according to wts doctrines )

    it is wery important for us to find the place decided by God for the "teaching of Christ"

    The "teaching of Christ " - what is it , and why it is so important ?

    2 John 1:
    9. "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;
    whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

    God's spirit lead us to see the importance given by Jehovah Himself to Christ's teaching !

    But first , what is this teaching ?

    -- Jesus answered to us :
    John 7
    16. Jesus answered, " My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me ."

    Again we see , apostle John wrote leaded by spirit (John 1 )
    17. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. "

    Jesus Himself said regarding to all His Father's word (including the written word in the O. T. ) :
    John 17:
    17. "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth . "

    The question is : if God's word in O.T. is truth , why ap. John said "...the truth came through Jesus Christ" ?

    As we can see , the knowledge/teaching God has sent through His Son has priority, or has a special importance !

    Not Jesus , nor ap. John decided that , but Jehovah Himself !

    Let us hear His voice :
    Matthew 17 :
    5."While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said,
    "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"


    Now , what is to be understood through the expression "teaching of Christ" (only a part of what He preached)? Let Him answer to us :
    Mathew 28 :
    20. " and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt.28.

    Apostle Paul agrees with this priority/importance given by Jehovah to the teaching of Christ:
    Hebrews 1 :
    1. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe..... ."

    also Hebrews 12 :
    24. to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

    25. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven ? "

    It has been prophesied that in the "latter days" there will be a certain action inside/within God's people :
    Daniel 8 :
    10. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.
    11. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low.
    12. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

    13.Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

    14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

    As we can see ,the truth is thrown down during the 2300 evenings and mornings. God's promise is , "then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

    The action of reconsacrating takes place when Jesus is present at the Temple !

    When Jesus begins his action , He finds "the truth"-the correct understanding of His teaching-- down !

    So He have to re-put His teaching to the place decided by Jehovah Himself !

    It is written at Acts 3 :
    21."He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

    When Jesus starts his second presence , He does like that :
    Revelation 3 :
    20. "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

    Also in Luke 12 :
    37. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching:
    verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them sit down to meat, and shall come and serve them.

    What do you think He will serve at the table to those watching when He comes ?

    -- Exactly the correct understanding of "the teaching of Christ" !

    ................................................................................................................................................................

    --------THE KINGDOM OF GOD----------

    Jesus preached this Kingdom as it follows:
    Matthew 4 :
    17. From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

    Mark 1:
    15. "The time has come," he said.
    "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

    WHAT is God's Kingdom ?

    According to Jesus words
    Matthew 6 :
    10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done , as in heaven, so on earth.

    .. .we see that His Kingdom means the state where His will is done !

    And surely it implies a certain order made by God .

    This "order" means a certain structure of authority between God's heavenly and earthly creatures, of course , made by God, or according to His will !

    So, Jesus named this kingdom as being
    -- OF GOD and
    -- OF HEAVEN

    What means that ?
    Of course, it means
    -- this kingdom belongs to God (YHWH ), it originates from HIM !
    -- its place of birth is in Heaven , there is its capital city of residence , from there it will be extended all over the God's creations .

    That means , the Kingdom of Heaven CAN EXIST IN HEAVEN even not being come yet on earth.

    But what the "Heaven" is ?

    People often would think it is all the space from where human eye cannot see further.
    Well , let us see a scripture :
    Psalm 33 :
    13. From heaven the LORD looks down
    and sees all mankind;
    14. from his dwelling place he watches
    all who live on earth-

    Job 1 :
    6. One day the angels came to present themselves
    before the LORD , and Satan also came with them.


    So , when the Kingdom of God and of Heaven gets start , it start in Heaven, where is God's "dwelling place" , and "before the Lord" where sometime the angels present themselves....

    Now let us see Jesus teaching about this kingdom...:

    -- "the Kingdom of Heaven is near"... means it was THEN near , when Jesus was on earth !

    --(Matt.12:28 ) : But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    ... that means God's kingdom WAS ACTIVE in Heaven at the moment when Jesus was speaking/ when He was on earth !

    YES , when Jesus WAS on earth the Kingdom WAS active in Heaven , even it was not fully installed ": the future King was on earth , not raised at God's right side yet !

    John 18:
    37. "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
    Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king .

    ...Jesus was King then !

    Furthermore Jesus taught his followers how to pray the Father
    Matthew 6:
    10. Thy kingdom come.
    Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

    IF we believe that Jesus words are the truth ,
    then we believe that He taught us that
    as the Kingdom was already on Heaven,
    and God's will was done there,
    our prayer(and desire also) to be :.."let (this God's order and state where His will is done) come on earth"

    surely Jesus did not say "Thy will be done ..on earth ..as it will be done in Heaven some time in the future.."

    Now we can correctly understand what Jesus meant when He said
    Matthew 16 :
    28. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in (into) His kingdom.

    The Son of Man was seen "coming" into His Kingdom at Pentecosta , when the earth / his followers on earth / received the confirmation from the Holy Spirit that He has been exalted and enthroned - in full power in Heaven - !

    BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS ??
    WHEN WHERE THEY THROWN OUT OF HEAVEN ??

    --(John 12:31) "Now is the time for judgment on this world;
    now the prince of this world will be driven out....

    ... where out ? literally stick on earth ?
    -- NOT ! but "driven out from "God's dwelling place", out from "before the Lord" where they could go before Jesus came on earth !

    --( Luke 10:18 ) He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    -- apostle John said regarding Satan using past tense :
    ...( Rev 9:1 ) "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth."

    WHILE Jesus was on earth He was spiritually fighting against Satan , but the very moment of overcoming him was at the moment of His death !
    -- a short time before His martirio , Jesus said (John 16:33)
    "...I have overcome the world." -- inclusive its god !

    Apostle Paul agrees with that Colossians 2:15:
    "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

    So it is absolutely sure ,
    The Kingdom of God and of Heaven get started in HEAVEN at that time when Jesus accomplished his service on earth , and immediate after his resurrection He received all power !

    Jesus said ( Matthew 28 )
    18. Then Jesus came to them and said,
    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
    What could retain Jesus from using all authority
    starting with that time ?
    -- Nothing could retain Jesus from using this authority in Heaven !

    BUT as concerns earth , YES , something retained Him !
    IT was Father's will - as prophetically exprimed in Psalm 110
    1. The LORD says to my Lord: ( at His enthronement )
    "Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet. "

    Well , but WHY this scripture is to be applied only concerning the earth , and not also for Heaven ?
    -- IT IS because we believe Jesus' teaching !
    -- HE taught us that His enemies were already thrown out of "Heaven" at the moment of His exalting at the right side of the Glory


    Well , at Pentecosta ,the Holy Spirit enlightened the first christians to understand ..(Acts 2 )as Peter said :

    32. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
    33. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
    34. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
    "'The Lord said to my Lord:
    "Sit at my right hand
    35. until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet."

    36. "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this:
    God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. "

    Well , here the word "KING" did not appear , but Jesus being "exalted to the right hand of God" and using "all authority in Heaven" , IT MEANS HE WAS KING IN HEAVEN !....as He said it to Pilat...

    BUT REGARDING EARTH ??

    Jesus said he received also "all power on earth".
    So , was it something who retained Christ from using His "all power" on earth ?
    -- YES ! It was YHWH' will , exprimed prophetically in Psalm 110:1 and correctly quoted and understood by apostle Peter at Pentecosta !
    ..........................................................................................................

    Now , we are able to understand correctly God's words in Psalm 110:1,2
    1. The LORD says to my Lord:
    "Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet."

    2. The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
    you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

    God said to Jesus "sit at my right hand" that is
    --to sit on throne and to use/exercise "all power recently received" IN THE HEAVEN , ruling as KING ,
    --BUT to wait regarding the earth " until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." !
    How so ?

    As Jesus taught us already , in Heaven were not enemy at His exalting moment , they were OUT OF HEAVEN !
    OUT of the place were the Kingdom was ruling !

    BUT WHERE were they ?

    --ON EARTH -- the visible enemies ,
    -- and "in heavenly realms" the invisible ones , as ap.Paul said in Ephesians 6 :
    12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,
    against the powers of this dark world and against the
    spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    Well, are not this "heavenly realms" "the Heaven" where the Kingdom is ?
    NOT !
    As I said , THE HEAVEN where God's Kingdom is ruling , is "before the Lord" and Devil with his followers are somewhere FAR AWAY (beyond) FROM THAT PLACE !

    Now we see that the following God's words "until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
    ... referes to the time and situation when YHWH will give both the permission and the commandment to His King to START REIGNING OVER THE EARTH , where the enemies are now !

    That action of His starting reigning over earth is prophetically shown by the words "Christ returning" or "Christ's (second)coming".

    These knowledges debated here are necessaries for further understanding of other prophetical passages and prophecies which are to happen on earth , as the Revelation 12 for instance .

    Because Christ started ruling in Heaven immediately after his ressurection , according to the"teaching of Christ", there is no place for such interpretation which leads to 1874 or 1914 or other years as the time for Christ starting to rule in Heaven.

    with great respect for Jehovah, and His enthroned King , Jesus Christ ,

    wantingtruth .

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Jesus spoke most often about the "Kingdom of God/Heaven". It is by far the most significant subject, but the WTS has got it all wrong.

    I present several PDF files containing material and references on the subject at:

    http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/kingdom_of_god.html

    Doug

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Interesting, but what about Jesus' return as King in Matthew 24 and Matthew 25? If Jesus became King in 33AD, what is being described in those chapters?

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    Yadda yadda , thank you for this question - is a very good question

    as it was told , in 33AD Jesus started using his "all power" in Heaven

    all prophecies , all the rest of the Bible regarding His "coming" are pointing to the action of starting to reign over earth , or "reigning in the midst of his enemies"

    so, not only Matthew 24 and 25 , but also all Revelation are pointing to events and actions in wich God's people and His saints are involved in , a little before and during the Kingdom's installation on earth,

    as apostle Paul said

    Romans 9

    28 for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

    in fact , what is the second coming of Jesus ? --- it means exactly "the coming" on earth of the heavenly kingdom (or the extension of his ruling and using 'all authority" ) , as we were taught in the prayer "Let your kingdom come , let your will be done as in heavens , so on earth."

    wantingtruth

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    Y Y 2 , regarding the "latter days" and God's people

    I invite you to read some words here

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    well , I need to repeat the link here

  • Awen
    Awen

    I pretty much agree with what you have said wantingtruth. I find nothing that I can dispute.

    Something that has bothered me for awhile about the WTS is the use of the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

    According to Phillipians 2:10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and on earth and under the earth"

    According to YHWH's OWN words, our worship and service should be directed to wards his SON, not himself directly. By worshipping the SON, we are fulfilling the commandments of the FATHER and hence indirectly worshipping him as well.

    So shouldn't we be Jesus' Witnesss? or Followers of The Way? or Christian Witnesses of Jesus?

    This has bugged me for a while.

    By takig the name Jehovah's Witnesses, the WTS is in fact ignoring the name of God and ignoring his commandments to honor the son. Also, for the most part we are to ignore the Mosaic Law teachings, as they no longer apply since we have a new teaching which is found in Christ Jesus our Lord. Yet the WTS repeatedly refers back to those old laws, not in a comparitive sense, but in a literal one. What I mean to say is, that the WTS implies that the Mosaid Laws are still in force by their insistence that we govern our lives by many of them, even though Christ says we should govern our lives thru Love.

    I looked at your other post, the one linked at the bottom of your last response and I have to agree that it seems that Russell and Rutherford started out with the best of intentions, but were eventually led astray by their own desires and the need to guide ones who kept asking to be led.

    King Solomon eventually parted from YHWH because of his foreign wives, yet Jesus still referenced him when speaking to the crowds about the dangers of materialism. So the WTS might now dismiss Rutherford and Russell, but we shouldn't, for it's not our place to judge.

    As far as the Kingdom and when it started ruling, I felt this took place at the Transfiguration, for after Jesus resurrection and before Pentecost, Jesus makes the statement that all authority has been given him in heaven and on earth. But Pentecost was important in that the major witnessing work was now underway. Looking at the scriptures I feel that there will be a second Pentecost-like event in the near future, where God's spirit will be poured out and the sons of the kingdom will shine forth and this good news of the kingdom will be preached for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come. When this spirit is poured out, there will no longer be any debate, it will be obvious to everyone on the earth who is and is not true followers of Christ.

    As for the mark of the beast. This is just my opinion. People who are within or not within the WTS or even in Christendom or elsewhere who are sighing and groaning over the detestable things being done are given a mark by a servant of Jesus with an inkhorn, these are the ones saved. The ones who are not sighing and groaning are given the mark of the beast, showing in essence that they support that beasts machinations.

    Thanks for all the information wantingtruth

  • zagor
    zagor

    Yup Christianity has a long history of wanting their piece of heavens on Earth, witnesses are only last in a long line of wannabes, unfortunately it is always innocent and naive who had to pick up the pieces ... of their lives

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsVg80YEhkQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6aPgA5549g

  • wantingtruth
    wantingtruth

    Thank you AWEN for the comment !

    the Bible Shows to us God's point of view regarding His people's situation , and not human's (point of view)

    and God's is much higher than ours ! Isaiah 55:8,9

    we can better understand what happened with those sincere seekers for truth from the 1870 onward , when we see how God did proceeded with them , (in fact the same He proceeds with us to-day)

    we read in Proverbs 25

    2. It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

    this means the Bible (and specially the prophecies ) were written in an "concealed" way

    and it is also said inspirately that only at the "end" the wise ones will understand them,

    and though , all christians from apostles untill to-day were under the following commandment

    20. do not treat prophecies with contempt.

    in these circumstances it was very easy to came to wrong conclusions from prophecies

    this is the main reason , God is judging His servants of older times accordingly to their heart toward His word and commandments , and not according to the way they understood/missunderstood the prophecies ( in the second case , all of them/us are failed before Him )

    BUT in the case of the present FDS/GB specially after 1942 , they had a bad heart before YHWH , they used the wrong prophetical interpretations as a basis for their further actions of deliberately sinning against God , Jesus and Holy Spirit.

    Well, it was a pleasure to meet you !

    I hope we will meet again !

    greetings

    wantingtruth

  • Terry
    Terry

    We can all make assertions about Jesus, his kingdom, the real meaning of this and that scripture. Tens of thousands have already!

    But, unless (and until) there is impact on the reality of everyday life larger than subtle inference---what do we REALLY have but our own wishful thinking?

    Think of how many totally sincere, heartfelt truth-seekers have "seen" things which did not prove to be real! Among them William Miller, Pastor

    Russell and E.B.White (make your own list...) were "convinced" of what they thought was there (and really was not.)

    You all know I think the real problem with UNDERSTANDING SCRIPTURE is that whatever actual information was there was lost, garbled or destroyed in that _______________GAP______________between the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and the people who wrote it down.

    Then another_________________GAP____________for corruption of text with endless translators adding and subtracting (piously!) to "clarify" things for us! (To be read with great irony.)

    Where does this leave us?

    In my opinon, God (Jehovah, Yahweh, whomever) can transcend text IF He so chooses.

    Martin Luther's theory of sola scriptura (the bible alone with prayer and the power of holy spirit) has NOT proved to be true. (Look at the thousands of arguing denominations all claiming to be "true" christians!)

    We have to live a good life and a REAL LIFE each and every day without jumping to wild conclusions about the meaning of corrupt texts or else we will become like those dinosaurs who stepped into the tar pits and got stuck.

    The Bible is a TAR PIT!

    Just my opinion.

    Why else, though, have soooooo many wonderfully sincere people been sooooo wrong time after time after time after time.......?

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