A Memorial/Easter question

by tenyearsafter 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    I was listening to the radio this morning and heard several Easter service ads, and then I had a chat with my JW Mom who had to remind me that April 9th was the Memorial and it got me to wondering...

    Since JW's believe that once we die we cease to exist, did that mean that Jesus ceased to exist for the three days between his death and his resurrection? If he did cease to exist, was the resurrected Jesus the same son of God that had been sent to earth to redeem mankind?...is the resurrected Jesus a clone of the human Jesus recreated from the memory of God?

    How would a JW answer that question?...

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    The witlesses would claim that Jehovah resurrected Jesus as a spirit. Which is not the correct answer, of course--Jesus was never resurrected. Rather, Jesus appeared in hallucinations by the apostles--including the nail prints to Thomas.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    The protestant will tell you that during those three days before Jesus's visible appearance....he went to hell.

    He had a little talk with Satan, kicked his ass, and took the keys away from him. Then he took some chains and bound Satan and his demons.

    Then, he came back to see his old buds to let every body know that he had the keys to the gate of hell and Satan would not be able to take them and lock them up anymore.

    Lovely stories, huh?

    Jesus got the buggerman.

    He's gone, where goblins go...be-low...be-low....be-low.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    And let's not forget Michael: (arch)angel --> man --> (nothing) --> spirit.

    A narrative gap is apparent here (and more generally in the JW understanding of resurrection = re-creation) which can only be covered with the use of an abstract substantive (e.g. "memory"); but if you look closer a similar gap is also implied in the previous step (Michael's "life" -- another abstraction -- being "transferred"); it is only less visible because it is "instant" (no temporal "blank" involved, but the logical problem is basically the same).

    Why don't we feel the same gap in traditional terminology? Imo, because instead of abstractions we have imaginary "characters," placeholders for the "person" or "subject" or "self" (e.g. "spirit," "soul") -- the existence of which is taken for granted.

    But more deeply the gap is inherent to language, in its basic narrative form. To tell anything you have to arbitrarily separate a subject (subjectum, hypostasis) from a verb (active or passive): "characters" and "action"; "things" and "events". Mythical metamorphoses, just like everyday "becoming," can't be expressed without distinguishing a "subject" which is ultimately an abstraction, from predicates: x was A and now x is A' -- but what is x, apart from A and A'?

    It might be interesting (tip to WT historians here) to trace back when and how the notion of resurrection as re-creation developed in WT literature (and perhaps earlier, because annihilationism is not limited to the WT, but as far as I understand in common Adventist doctrine it is rather destruction than negation of the soul). To me it has definite (although most likely unconscious, and perhaps prophetic) similarities with 20th-century structuralism.

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Narkissos, I didn't even think of the Michael---->Jesus transformation, but I could almost see that since Michael didn't "die" but rather was transferred to the human embryo. The ceasing of existence at death that Jesus experienced is a bit tougher for JW interpretation to explain away. The resurrection (re-creation) of Jesus according to JW teaching would mean that he was not the original Son of God who came to earth but rather a new creature created from the "memories" of the original Jesus.

    Cameo, I understand the Protestant viewpoint...and from a pure continuity standpoint, it makes more sense than the JW interpretation...at least he went somewhere without ceasing to exist!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    tya

    That's precisely the point I was trying to make (poorly I guess, but it's not very easy to explain): our imagination can't accept the idea of an interruption (a blank) in a narrative line of "identity" even though it can reduce "identity" (ipseity might be more precise) to a mere abstraction, an empty "who" (quis) without any "what" (quid).

    Let's stay in the JW paradigm for the sake of discussion: The archangel Michael "becomes" the infant Jesus -- the eggcell in Mary's womb to be more specific. I'm not quite familiar with the self-understanding of archangels and little more with that of eggcells even though I have been one (eggcell, I mean); now what can you figure (it's all about imagination here) "passes" from the archangel to the eggcell that makes them the same? The WT says "life" -- a pretty abstract and undefinable notion, especially if it has to be common to archangels and humans... You don't imagine the eggcell thinking, "I was an archangel one minute ago"... nor the infant, nor the child. If consciousness is what matters, that makes at least (still in the WT paradigm) for a 30 years and 9 months "blank" (assuming the pre-human "life" is suddenly revealed at baptism as the WT used to say). And what about Jesus resurrected as spirit: does he instantly remember, "oh boy, I was an archangel, and then I was a man?" In any case it implies the new assumption of a story and not a continuous line of "consciousness".

    Now from a more "scientific" angle, it seems to me that even within the life of a biological individual, "memory" is rather something that is reconstructed time and again in a neuro-linguistic process than something that "stays" somewhere "within". That's why I tend to understand the JW theory as essentially modern, and for this very reason anachronistic to the Biblical perspective(s)...

  • BabaYaga
    BabaYaga
    Narkissos said: (arch)angel --> man --> (nothing) --> spirit.

    Wow. It is amazing how putting the story in a narrative line really messes with one's "suspension of disbelief".

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    bttt

    Excellent stuff Narkissos. I want to mull on that a bit and get back to comment.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit