How do I ask about or introduce past WT literature in a discussion

by insearchoftruth 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    My wife is 'studying' with a JW sister and the sisters husband is a PO who is going to come over next week to meet me and answer some of my questions and concerns. They are also supposed to be getting me a copy of the Proclaimers book so I can read about the history of the org, in addition to some other publications.

    I know that the Proclaimers book tells a very slanted story about the JWs, but it also refers to a lot of other JW publications, those of old that are not looked at or even in many cases known about by current jws.

    Was wondering how I go about bringing the past publications into our conversations, if I produce a scan of one, I am sure that would raise a signal, would the only way be to ask about getting early information by following a list of references and continually asking for the reference???

  • blondie
    blondie

    Many of the older publications are online. The problem in using them is that if newer and different information has come out, the older information is considered obsolete and of no concern. jws are conditioned that there will be "adjustments" and "clarifications" and the example the WTS points to most is circumcision not being required any more.

    I would stick to more recent changes such as the 1914 generation change and the more recent one about 1935 no longer being the cutoff date for being called to heaven as anointed.

    I would avoid the trinity since that tends to just go round and round.

    I like ask how jws can accept hemoglobin based products that are made out of stored expired blood.

    Blondie

    ***

    g8/06p.11TheRealValueofBlood***

    What

    AreHemoglobin-BasedOxygenCarriers?

    Within each red blood cell are some 300 million hemoglobin molecules. Hemoglobin represents about one third of the volume of a mature red cell. Each molecule contains the protein globin and a pigment called heme—which includes an iron atom. When a red blood cell passes through the lungs, oxygen molecules penetrate the cell and attach themselves to hemoglobin molecules. Seconds later, the oxygen is discharged into body tissue, sustaining the life of the cells.

    Some manufacturers now process hemoglobin, releasing it from human or bovine red blood cells. The extracted hemoglobin is then filtered to remove impurities, chemically modified and purified, mixed with a solution, and packaged. The end product—not yet approved for use in most lands—is called a hemoglobin-based oxygen carrier, or HBOC. Since the heme is responsible for the rich red color of blood, a unit of HBOC looks just like a unit of red blood cells, the primary component from which it is taken.

    Unlike red blood cells, which must be refrigerated and discarded after a few weeks, the HBOC can be stored at room temperature and used months later. And since the cell membrane with its unique antigens is gone, severe reactions due to mismatched blood types pose no threat. However, compared with other blood fractions, the HBOC presents more challenges to conscientious Christians, who seek to obey God’s law on blood. Why? As long as the HBOC is derived from blood, there are two objections that may be raised. One, the HBOC carries out the key function of a primary component of blood, the red cells. Two, hemoglobin, from which the HBOC is derived, makes up a significant portion of that component. Regarding this and similar products, then, Christians face a very serious decision. They must carefully and prayerfully meditate on Bible principles concerning the sacredness of blood. With a keen desire to maintain a good relationship with Jehovah, each must be guided by his Bible-trained conscience.—Galatians 6:5.

  • Atlantis
    Atlantis

    http://www.freeminds.org/sales/wtreadolderbooks.htm

    Why you should encourage Jehovah's Witnesses to read their older literature!
    Use this in your witnessing to Witnesses!

    Watchtower May 15, 1957 pp.313-315 Appreciating Basic Christian Publications:

    …Their zeal for knowledge may even prompt them to dig back into things that were published long before they came into the truth, expanding and deepening their understanding, and ever growing in Christian maturity. Do you dig into our older publications to expand and deepen your knowledge on subjects about which questions arise? Have you really studied these earlier publications? ... How is your background of knowledge? ... Never think: "Oh, I know most of that." For you will find, indeed, that you do not and that you will be strengthened by your additional study.... once you have completed your study of them you can then look to even older publications.... Only by studying earlier publications and digging back through previous issues of The Watchtower kept in the library at your local Kingdom Hall. There is much in the way of spiritual riches and aid toward mature knowledge in these earlier publications, and their study is most certainly worth your time.

    N.

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks Blondie and Atlantis,

    Would the PO (wife's study conductor's husband) encourage the reading of older literature and then assist in getting copies of it for my perusal and if he can not get it, not be too surprised that I am able to come up with it?

    There a quite a few documents that I have downloaded that have some great information on them, but I am not sure if I can or should present this to my wife and/or the sister/PO.

    Thanks,

    ISOT

  • AudeSapere
    AudeSapere

    I think you have an incredibly wearisome project ahead of you. From my count you have at least 4 or 5 jws working you and your wife.

    Discussions with JWs are never very productive. They will always hold control of the conversation and will steer it where they want. Circular logic abounds.

    What worked for me was - when I was ready - the 607 date, Malawi vs Mexico, and the disfellowshipping of children proved to me this religion is based on something other than (1) truth, (2) integrity, (3) love.

    Secular history proves 607 is not the date Jerusalem was Destroyed. If that date is false, the supposed appointment of the Governing Body is invalidated. (They are not God's sole channel of communication on earth.)

    Malawi witnesses were horrifically tortured starting in the early- to mid-70's for refusal to carry a political party card. Mexico witnesses were given a strategy to avoid persecution. The Malawi situation was still going strong with no revision by the WTS. Mexico made many concessions to further the work by staying under the radar. While the method used in Mexico was probably the best way to proceed, those poor people in Malawi were quite literally sacrificed for the sake of proving a lesson to the global contingent of JWs.

    Children are encouraged to get baptized early. In many cases they are coerced to do so. When they hit their teen years, they then become subject to judicial committees to 'deal' with teenage indiscretions. Because they are baptised, they can be disfellowshipped - thus pulling ALL support from then at a time when they need loving guidance, insight and compassion the most. This is even more heinous (if that's even possible) when you realize that often this DF status stays with the person for the rest of their life. Not all families cut off their children, but a great majority do to varying degrees. And all congregations around the world likewise shun that person who was DF'd in the teens even though that person may now be a grandparent. The family unit is never restored to a strong support. It cannot be. The scars from the severe trauma are too deep.

    You may consider sticking to 2 or 3 of your own points and not letting them off the hook until they resolve those issues. Or... engage in a battle of words and semantics that could go on forever.

    Of course, your situation is much more tenuous because of your wife's involvement - which I realize is the ONLY reason you are entertaining these people at all in the first place!!

    Hopefully others will be able to give you more specific advise based on your intitial question in this thread.

    I sure don't envy your situation. Sorry there is no easy resolution to this. Or maybe there is. But I'm sure it's not by picking apart every chapter of every publication they offer you.

    -Aude.

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks Aude, I am just trying to tread some water right now and hopefully get a good idea together, there is no way I can go after all the doctrines, just hope to ask simple and leading questions, my wife is the kind who needs to figure out things for herself, if I try to get her to figure them out, she will just dig in deeper.

    If I did not love her as much as I do, I would not be doing this. Also, she has desire to have a family of our own (we have a son from her first marriage) and I already have told her that before we start a family, we need to figure out the faith thing....not a good thing to say I am sure, but I said it and now no taking back.

  • AudeSapere
    AudeSapere
    Blondie wrote: Many of the older publications are online. The problem in using them is that if newer and different information has come out, the older information is considered obsolete and of no concern. jws are conditioned that there will be "adjustments" and "clarifications" and the example the WTS points to most is circumcision not being required any more.
    Insearchoftruth wrote: Would the PO (wife's study conductor's husband) encourage the reading of older literature and then assist in getting copies of it for my perusal and if he can not get it, not be too surprised that I am able to come up with it?

    Witnesses themselves pretty much discount any and all of their own literature that is older than 20 or 25 years old. They almost laugh at it themselves as "I can't believe we actually believed that 'old light'. My how things have changed. Jehovah's organization sure is advancing quickly." If you bring out the old stuff, the will roll their eyes (maybe not so visibly, but you might want to watch just for fun) and then smile with a patronizing grin. It's like pulling out a paper that someone wrote in 3rd grade with their hopes and dreams recorded for decades and then trying to hold them accountable for that childish babble. That's what most diehard witnesses think of their own historical literature. They think they've grown up and become enlightened since then.

    Regarding the Blood issue, a side point that tweaked my conscience was: How can I even consider accepting blood factions if I would refuse to contribute to the supply. The answer is that most witnesses (and the org itself) has no problem taking from society (the world at large) but is loathe to give back in any measurable or meaningful manner.

    -Aude.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    After you have the Proclaimers book, ask for a WT CD. You're really gonna have to fake being interested. If you can borrow a copy of the CD for a couple hours you can burn a copy, no problem. Get Don Cameron's book Captives Of A Concept. It mostly uses the Proclaimers book as support. That book's a loaded gun.

    The Watchtower owned web site is a good source of referrals to older works too. I'd guess some Witnesses might accept that site. Not sure!

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    I have a 2006 wt CD on the computer, but I guess I need a legal copy to be able to use it, don't I?

    I am happy to be getting the proclaimers book, and I already have downloaded the recent revision of Captives of a Concept from LuLu.

    Thanks Gary, Aude, Blondie and all, you are great!

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