Is there a better way to spread democracy?

by nvrgnbk 6 Replies latest jw friends

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4187835.ece>

    Michael Smith | The Sunday times, June 22, 2008

    British forces in Afghanistan have used one of the world's most deadly and
    controversial missiles to fight the Taliban.

    Apache attack helicopters have fired the thermobaric weapons against
    fighters in buildings and caves, to create a pressure wave which sucks the
    air out of victims, shreds their internal organs and crushes their bodies.

    The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has admitted to the use of the weapons,
    condemned by human rights groups as "brutal", on several occasions,
    including against a cave complex.

    The use of the Hellfire AGM-114N weapons has been deemed so successful they
    will now be fired from RAF Reaper unmanned drones controlled by "pilots" at
    Creech air force base in Nevada, an MoD spokesman added.

    Thermobaric weapons, or vacuum bombs, were first combat-tested by the Soviet
    Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s and their use by Russia against civilians
    in Chechnya in the 1990s was condemned worldwide.

    The secret decision to buy the Hellfire AGM-114N missiles was made earlier
    this year following problems attacking Taliban fortified positions.

    British Apache pilots complained that standard Hellfire antitank missiles
    were going straight through buildings and out of the other side. Even when
    they did explode, there were limited casualties among the Taliban inside,
    particularly when a building contained a number of rooms.

    American Apache pilots overcame the problem in Iraq with the thermobaric
    Hellfire.

    The weapons are so controversial that MoD weapons and legal experts spent 18
    months debating whether British troops could use them without breaking
    international law.

    Eventually, they decided to get round the ethical problems by redefining the
    weapons.

    "We no longer accept the term thermobaric [for the AGM-114N] as there is no
    internationally agreed definition," said an MoD spokesman. "We call it an
    enhanced blast weapon."

    The redefinition has allowed British forces to use the weapons legally, but
    is undermined by the publicity of their manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, which
    markets them as thermobaric.

    When the American military bought them in 2005, President George W Bush
    said: "There are going to be some awfully surprised terrorists when the
    thermobaric Hellfire comes knocking."

    Despite the Bush rhetoric, it is unlikely anyone targeted by the missile
    would know much about it. The laser-guided missile has a warhead packed with
    fluorinated aluminium powder surrounding a small charge.

    When it hits the target, the charge disperses the aluminium powder
    throughout the target building. The cloud then ignites, causing a massive
    secondary blast that tears throughout any enclosed space.

    The blast creates a vacuum which draws air and debris back in, creating
    pressure of up to 430lb per sq in. The more heavily the building is
    protected, the more concentrated the blast.

    The cloud of burning aluminium powder means victims often die from
    asphyxiation before the pressure shreds their organs.

    Jim Gribschaw, Lockheed Martin's programme director for air-to-ground
    missiles systems, said the thermobaric Hellfire was "capable of reaching
    around corners to strike enemy forces hiding in cases, bunkers and hardened
    multi-room complexes."

    Human Rights Watch argues they are "particularly brutal" and that their
    blast "makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter".

    Nick Harvey, the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, said: "It is staggering
    the MoD has added these weapons to Britain's arsenal in cloak-and-dagger
    secrecy. Parliament has never assented to their use."

    He added: "Gordon Brown claimed the moral high ground when Britain supported
    a ban on cluster munitions but leaving a loophole for these weapons casts a
    different picture on the true position."

    The MoD said: "We are conscious of the controversial aspects [of this
    weapon] but it is being used sparingly and under strict circumstances where
    it is deemed appropriate by the commander on the ground."

    A spokesman added that it could "achieve objectives with the minimum
    coalition casualties and reduced collateral damage".

  • Forscher
    Forscher

    War is a poor way to spread Democracy, period.

    I hope those who accuse me of being a "neo-con" will note my statement and apologize as that was my position all along. My reasons for supporting Bush's action in Iraq was, as I mentioned more than once, because I saw it as a sound strategic action in furtherance of stopping those who supported the ongoing war on the US and her allies prosecuted by Muslim extremists. Iraq was a legitimate target due to its material support of terrorists targeting Israel.

    As for the use of weapons mentioned in the article given for our consideration, I look to Miyamoto Musashi from his Book of the five Rings. "It is most regrettable for one to die with a weapon sheathed." What Musashi essentially means by that is that when one commits to either a war or combat, one should use all of the weapons at one's disposal which will ensure a victory. That is one of the essential truths of war.

    There is no clean, precise way to kill one's enemies. The best one can hope to do is to be precise enough to reduce casualties among the innocent to a minimum. Unfortunately there is no way to bring that reduction to zero. And especially so when one's enemy prefers to use the innocent as a shield, the preferred tactic of our enemy. It is for that reason that one wants to be sure of the need to go to war before committing one's self to it.

    For years our leaders preferred to ignore the war conducted against us and treat it as a criminal justice issue. 9/11 brought home to us the foolishness of such a policy. The fact is that we've been at war for a very long time, whether we wanted it or not.

    General Patton pointed out that the point of war is "to make the other poor bastard die for his country," or in the current case, cause. So the only logical course is to use those weapons which will do that the most effectively. So, I have no problem with the use of thermobaric weapons against our sworn enemies if they get the job done.

    Forscher

  • changeling
    changeling

    War sucks.

    changeling :)

  • What-A-Coincidence
  • jstalin
    jstalin

    Lol. Chavez is another petty wanna-be dictator. If he's so "pro-democracy" why does he shut down all opposition?

  • LouBelle
    LouBelle

    Stick it in the micro for a couple of seconds...not too long, just to soften it up. Makes spreading a WHOLE lot easier

    Ag there must be - but it's got to come from the people - that's where the power lies. And if the masses are stuck in one mind set - there is no changing them.

    As for war - nope not the way.

  • ldrnomo
    ldrnomo

    I hope the Borg hasn't found out about these because they might use them on us apostates!

    LD

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