Tom Cabeen on EWTN's Journey Home tonight. I enjoyed it.

by Seeker4 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Watched Tom tonight, and thought he made some excellent points. I called, and actually got through, but the producer didn't put me on. I wanted to ask Tom if his leaving Bethel in 1980 had any connection with the whole Ray Franz/Ed Dunlap incident,which was happening then.

    As Tom knows, I'm one of those ex-JWs who became an atheist, so I took quite a different path than he did in leaving the JWs, and I certainly don't agree with his conclusions. But I'm glad he had a forum to discuss them, and I appreciate his honesty in his discussion of JWs. It wasn't vindictive, and it wasn't demeaning. Nicely done, Tom.

    Any points from the show that you especially enjoyed - or disagreed with?

    S4

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    I replied on the other thread. But I too thought he did a good job As I said there>>> I love Tom very much( I have met him personally) I am not in agreeance with him ...But He did a great job I think & is to be commended.
    He mentioned his relationship with Christ...That to me is the MOST Important message he can spread. I would have like to ask >did he not think the bowing,& kissing the ring, of the POPE a form of Idolizing...

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Hi S4,

    I was at Bethel at the time but was not disfellowshipped then. Although I had close connections with Franz and Dunlap, evidently no one testified against me. I knew them both well, though (still know Ray, Ed died a few years ago). In fact, I knew all the people who were disfellowshipped at the time. Most were close personal friends. We left Bethel in June of 1980 and tried to slip away unnoticed, but were ultimately unable to do so.

    In 1982, the elders of the Lancaster, PA congregation (where we had moved) called me into a meeting. It was not a judicial hearing, they said. There were no charges filed, and no witnesses to any wrongdoing. They just wanted some information. They asked if I had any doubts about WT teaching. I said that to my knowledge, all thinking people had doubts about something. I always had and probably always would. They were on a fishing expedition, so they questioned me for about an hour and a half, but since they had no idea what "apostate" concepts had been bandied about at Bethel, they had no idea what to ask, and I wasn't about to help them by volunteering anything. The meeting ended with nothing resolved. By that weekend everyone in the congregation knew we were "doubters". (One of the elders' wives had told my brother-in-law's wife about it, and I presume that others had gossiped as well.)

    The elders called us into another meeting about two weeks later. Since it had become "common knowledge" that I had doubts, they had to take action. I said that prior to the meeting no one had any idea that we had any doubts, so they must have been responsible for that. They said it was not their concern how it came to be common knowledge, now that it was, they had no choice but to take action. They asked me if my (unspecified) doubts had been resolved. I replied that nothing had changed in the past two weeks, why should it? The meeting ended after five or ten minutes. On the way out of the room, the presiding elder turned and asked my wife if she agreed with me about most religious matters. She replied "Yes". (They had not asked her even one other question at either of the two meetings.) So they left, and returned. They said we had left them with "no choice" but to disfellowship both of us.

    That was the end of our JW career. We went out for pizza and beer after the meeting. They did not join us.

    Regarding the show, thanks for your positive comments. I guess I was glad to be able to show viewers that I have no hatred or bitterness toward my former companions in my life's journey. I also wished the questions had been more about my journey, rather than about what JWs believe and why. BTW, if you ever decide to revisit your choice to be atheists, let me know. We could have some lively discussions.

    Tom

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Hi Grace,

    First of all, Happy Birthday! I wish you many long and happy years, with good health and peace!

    In answer to your question, I do not consider bowing before someone or kissing them to be worship or a form of idolatry. I kiss my wife, my kids and close friends, but I do not worship them. I also often bow to honor people, even to audiences when I sing in a concert. I rise when a judge enters a courtroom. I find it nice to have ways to show honor to people whom I respect. I have never considered any such things to be worship.

    Best regards, my sister!

    Tom

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Tom, thanks for the replies. It was certainly more detailed than I would have gotten if they put me through on the show!

    I found your experience astounding - but absolutely believable. The elders question you about your doubts concerning the WTS, which you haven't expressed to anyone. Then they gossip about it, it gets around the congregation, and they df you because people are talking about it!! "You've left us no choice.." Hahahaha!

    That is JWism to a T.

    Oh, I'm sure we'd have some great discussions. I do have to say that, even when I was a JW, I always enjoyed the writings of Thomas Merton. Reading Merton and Gandhi and Thich Nhat Han opened my eyes to what a truly spiritual life meant. It was a far cry from the way most Witnesses lived.

    Thanks again for the reply and I send you all my best.

    Quick question: Do you remember a Steve Lupo at Bethel when you were there? He was a very close friend, and I think he was in the study group with Ray, and may have helped when Ray had to leave Bethel. He's an elder in Burlington, VT now

    S4

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    S4, Steve Lupo! There is a name I haven't heard in over a quarter century! Yes, I knew Steve, but not well. He was among the small group of people who were meeting together in small groups and happily questioning things, until the old guard got wind of it and, in standard WT style, set off the nuclear weapons as the first line of defense, frying friend and foe alike. I actually think that the WTS has never been the same since. Haven't heard a word about Lupo since 1980. If he is still a JW and an elder, that would explain it. Tom

  • done4good
    done4good

    Hi Tom and S4,

    Does EWTN plan to re-air this anytime soon? I missed it, but would like to see it.

    Jason

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    As far as I know, Steve is still an elder in Burlington. We've known each other since we were teenagers.

    I taught two Pioneer schools in Burlington back in the 1980s, and Steve and I hung out some. Steve talked with me a little about the events surrounding the great purge at Bethel when Ray left. It was a long time ago and I don't remember a lot of the details, but I think that was part of the reason he left.

    I think he was questioned by one of the "Inquisitions" at the time - with Fred Rusk if I remember correctly. I first met Fred in 1981 when we traveled with him to an international convention in Lima, Peru. We hit it off with Fred and Marge, and they came up and stayed with us in Vermont a few times. Fred also talked with me a few times about how things went down with Ray Franz at Bethel, and spoke wistfully of the fact that essentially all of the brothers he'd taught Gilead School with were no longer Witnesses except Ulysses Glass.

    Fred also made quite a point on one of his visits to my house of showing me the evidence for the 607 date. I wasn't sure why, at the time. I also know that on our trip to Peru he met with all the missionaries and went over several points that were things Ray and Ed Dunlap had questioned to make sure the missionaries were toeing the WTS party line.

    Also on that trip to Peru was Arthur Worsley - who was a lot of fun actually. One night we were all out to dinner with a very well connected couple from California, I think. The brother may have been an ex-DO, and Fred indicated he'd run into some problems with the WTS, though I'm not sure what, but enough to disillusion him it seems. The former DO told quite a story about his involvement with helping a Witness get out of Communist China and resettle in the US. I think this Chinese Witness had his story in the mags at one time.

    Can't remember all the details - just reminiscing. I've often wondered if that CA former DO eventually left the WTS.

    S4

  • NanaR
    NanaR
    Does EWTN plan to re-air this anytime soon? I missed it, but would like to see it.

    Jason:

    I don't know about any planned rerun of the show (although a followup "round table" discussion sometimes occurs -- hopefully Tom will let us know if one gets scheduled).

    There are no permanent video archives of the show, but you can listen to the archived audio here:

    http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=jh_05192008.rm

    EWTN also sells DVDs of past episodes.

    Pax,

    Ruth

    ps: Another excellent two part interview (with Randy Watters interviewing Tom Cabeen) can be found here:

    http://www.freeminds.org/media/cabeeninterview.htm

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