New Light...My counter argument - Jn 3:34

by lookingnow25 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • lookingnow25

    So we have probably all had someone confront us with Prov. 4:18 about the light getting brighter. JW's even have their own words for it "NEW LIGHT".

    It came up again in a casual, non-confrontational conversation with my wife and I had an opportunity to point out John 3:34 - "34 For the one whom God sent forth speaks the sayings of God, for he does not give the spirit by measure." (NWT)

    It seems to me that the JW view of "NEW LIGHT", i.e. changing light/flickering light directly counters John 3:34. Jehovah would NOT give the spirit by measure. If there was such a thing as absolute biblical truth, Jehovah would give it in full measure, not partial.

    I know that many see this type of reasoning as pointless, going scripture for scripture to disprove JW beliefs, but this scripture may get me out of many future jams, maybe it will help someone else.


  • leftbelow

    Well I can't speak for everyone but I liked it and it may help me to so if nothing else you helped me.


  • JCanon

    Interesting, and it's a complex issue. But the Bible does suggest in other scriptures that there would at least be diminished understanding among the anointed at various times.

    For instance, the parable of the ten virgins; five wise and five foolish. They all nod and their lamps grow dim just before the second coming. When the announcement in the middle of the night occurs, then the wise virgins get their lamps burning brightly again and get into the kingdom. So even this prophesies everything would not be understood immediately or fully, even by the "wise virgins."

    Further there is a direct reference to stumbling over misinterpretations and a need for refining predicted for God's people:

    DAN 11:35 " 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed."

    So, "new light" claims aside, generally it is understood that everything would not be known right up front and clear and in black and white, but that it would occur gradually.

    The "stumbling" helps in the refining process. It sharpens them. When you think everything is right and in place, which it may be from a distance, and then it fails, it forces you to examine why it failed and you have to refine. You know, it's like the kingdom is at first presumed to be like baking a cake. You can follow the directions but the cake will turn out nicely even if you vary the measurements a bit. Then you find out, it's not like baking a cake, but the precision of some chemical formula that has to have precise measurements down to the milliliter. That requires new instruments that allow you to measure the refined amounts, etc. Your spiritual focus thus gets refined and more astute. You take less for granted. You check every single detail.

    So likewise, the focus on 1914 was good enough to draw attention to it in the beginning. But now it must fit into a more refined application now that we know 529 BCE was the actual date for the fall of Jerusalem, etc.

    And this IS like a journey as well. When far away from your destination, you only need to go in the general direction. You're on the super highway, the interstate. But the closer you get to your destination, you can't stay on the internstate any more. You've got to turn off at some point, likely to a major boulevard. You stay on that main street for a while and then you have to turn off on a smaller street, etc. So in that sense the "light is getting brighter" as well. Those on the broad way at some point need to leave and go down the narrow path. But up to that point,the broadway led in that general direction, so it was okay. Fundamental concepts and beliefs get more refined the closer you get to the end result.

    So the "new light" concept, though ill applied to the WTS since they are now in spiritual darkness and have ZERO "new light", is one that is justified in the Bible from several points of view, I believe. Everything would not be known in detail from the very beginning.


  • WTWizard

    My counterargument was, when I clicked onto my first apostate web site, the lights came on. Full blast.

  • Beta Male
    Beta Male

    just because their lamps grew dim doesnt necessarily mean they didnt have full understanding of the situation, JCanon.

    they just werent paying attention when the time came.

    not suprisingly, your interpretation is a stretch.

  • snowbird

    Thank you so much for pointing that out.

    John the Baptist's words from The Message Bible:

    John 3:34 -36 "The One that God sent speaks God's words. And don't think he rations out the Spirit in bits and pieces. The Father loves the Son extravagantly. He turned everything over to him so he could give it away—a lavish distribution of gifts. That is why whoever acceptsand trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! And that is also why the person who avoids and distrusts the Son is in the dark and doesn't see life. All he experiences of God is darkness, and an angry darkness at that."

    Isn't it strange how a person could read right over those verses and not get the meaning?

    We were in darkness while serving the WTS.


  • JCanon

    Hi Beta Male:

    just because their lamps grew dim doesnt necessarily mean they didnt have full understanding of the situation, JCanon.

    they just werent paying attention when the time came.

    not suprisingly, your interpretation is a stretch.

    Not a stretch. Read Matthew 24:29-30! "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." there was darking of the sun moon an stars", etc. This means that God would spiritually limit the understanding in the congregation!!! That is accurate and precise understanding would be supppressed after the Holocaust among Christians in general and particularly among the JW organization. What ELSE could "nodding" or the diming of the lamps mean but that there was a "darkness" about the details of the second coming. ACTUAL FULFILLMENT: The actual fulfillment of the scenario of the "cry in th night" is that in 1998, which is at the end of the 12th hour, the "last hour" I publicly announced on H20 that I was the messiah. This was the literal "cry in the night!" But with that, I provided chronology and references to the prodigal son as the messiah, and Lazarus being the messiah. This is where the "wise virgins" with the extra oil separated from the "foolish virgins" who brought no extra oil. The EXTRA OIL was focus on all things Biblical, including the chronology and the prophetic parables. It made sense to the "wise virgins" that Lazarus was messianic and that the prodigal son was messianic. They could see the prodigal son receiving new robes and the banquet. It's not that far fetched. The foolish virgins would have nothing to do with this. After all, the Watchtower hadn't told them this, so why should they believe? The "wise virgins" responded to the announcement. They could see that the second wave offering was with leaven. That meant something to them! But alas! They would not share their insights with the "foolish virgins." They basically said to the foolish virgins: "Ohhhh, dear sisters. I'm so moved for your situation, but I'm so afraid I might not have enough oil for even myself. Things are soooo very anxious now. Being that I might not have oil enough for myself, therefore, I bid you to buy our own oil. I'm soooooo, very sorry. Believe me." The foolish virgins didn't quite understand, so they said: "Huh?" So the wise vrgins said, "Oh, let me simplify: TAKE A HIKE!!! You ain't getting any of my oil, you lazy b----ches!" Maybe.... Anyway, Beta Male. It boils down to this. I'm in the loop: You're not in the loop. So your outside the window looking in spectator response is clearly understood and noted. JC

  • Kenneson

    Matt. 24:29-30 is also referred to in Joel 2:10, 31. In Acts 2:14-21 Peter says this was fulfilled at Pentecost. "These men are not drunk...No, this is what is spoken by the prophet Joel..."

  • Kenneson

    Why should the oil have anything to do with spiritual enlightenment? The wise virgins were just as much asleep as the foolish ones. Matt. 25:5

  • still_in74

    I have a thread on New Light now as well.

    the WTS has seemed to really messed up on this one.

    check it out...

Share this