two part question (s)

by bite me 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  bite me

  Hi, I hope everyone had a nice weekend!

  Okay, to my two questions. I figure I do it this way, because it's annoying to post something and realize I wanted to do another post, but couldn't.

  Okay first question (it's an easy one)

  1) When it comes to the watchtower study guides, I recall someone saying something before that they are to be returned as the meeting ended (to prevent them from being lost??) Can someone varify that? I'm just curious if people are allowed to bring them home at all or do they stay at the hall. If they are allowed to bring something home with them, what is it if it is not the months study booklet.

  I really hope that makes sense.

  2) Are JW's taught that they are going to be saved by just their works alone? The bible does say that it is by faith that we will be saved. Basicly we do not need works just faith?
  Then I came across this: James 2: 26 " For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"

  so now we need faith and works?

  Can someone(s) help me make sense of this please?
• 

  CHILD

  I don't have an answer for question #1, but for question #2,

  We were taught one must have faith in conjunction with works. One is supposed to have faith, but faith alone is not enough. One must keep busy in the ministry, personal study, work and family responsibilities and hope to survive Armaggedon.
• 

  LayingLow

  I know nothing about #1. About #2 I just have some comments.
  
  During my time as a JW I remember pondering the faith/works thing. I still do not believe it's a simple open and shut case. The Jews had works of law, that if they could live up to they would get saved. In their minds many had no faith in God but tried to get away with doing these outward works of piety thinking that they would deserve everlasting life. Since no one can uphold that law perfectly, it was weak, and was replaced. It made no one perfect.
  
  Abraham lived before law as did Noah. They were men of faith. Men of faith had no set of rules that if they followed perfectly they would have life. Instead they operated on godly principles and it was their faith (actually in the future sacrifice that God would provide ) that allowed God to account them as righteous.
  
  In a way our situation is different than Noah and Abraham's and at the same time it is the same. We seek the righteousness that is by faith like they did, but we exercise faith in the sacrifice that has been made ( Jesus Christ ) instead of the one that will be made. We have the assurance that that sacrifice was accepted by Christ's resurrection where they didn't have the resurrection of Christ to look to for assurance. Could people back then have been really immoral and yet be considered men of faith by God, I don't know of any. I'm certainly not the judge. I'm just offering something I've thought about.
  
  Back to the subject of JW's. Do they believe that they could go out in field service for a million hours and then they are owed everlasting life? No. How many hours would you have to go out to get it? It doesn't matter because you can't earn it. I think all JW's would agree to those statements. Can you go out in field service 0 hrs and have faith and still be saved? Many JW's I know would answer no. So in a way, that is a work of law. There are some protestant churches that set up the same kind of thing. Ex. - You don't go to church, you don't get saved.
  
  I think they take a blend of works and faith. I know many people that would say any blending of required works + faith = salvation to be setting up a law of works. Is it? I'm not sure.
  
  There were many times when the Jewish Christians would try to force Gentile Christians to uphold the law and it was repeatedly stated that we trust to get saved through faith and not through law.
  
  Is it a law if there is no promise that if you uphold it you will get life? If the answer to that is no, then no they don't set up law. Because they don't promise life for field service if there is no faith to accompany it. I find them hard to read because in all their literature they make it apparent that they expect no one but JW's to survive Armageddon. They expect many who have faith in Christ to be destroyed (non-Jehovah's Witness Christians). And they imply that unless you are involved in their door-to-door ministry you will be destroyed. Is that a work of law? You be the judge. Maybe me writing all these things were things you already knew. If so, I'm sorry. If not, I hope it at least shows that it's not a simple topic.
  
  One thing I'm adding after editing this. - If you know a train is coming and you're sitting on the tracks, do you move? I would think that anyone who really believes it will. May some move off the tracks who don't believe the train is coming? Yes. Do they have faith that it is coming? No.
• 

  aniron

  Questions 1

  As far as I have heard that now with the new "JW only" study Watchtower. Is that JWs and their studies who attend the meeting are allowed a copy. Any visitors may be given a copy, but they may be collected at the end of the meeting. But nothing seems definite about this.

  Question 2

  "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8

  Works are your faith in action, not a means of gaining salvation.

  The WT teaches that only by being a member of there organisation and doing as iy says can you be saved.

  http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
• 

  LayingLow

  I just wanted to thank you Aniron for adding that. I found the link very helpful. Two kinds of faith, ascentia and fiducia, interesting.
• 

  Caljuher

  As for question #2, the concept of the Witnesses regarding the connection between faith and works is actually not outside of mainstream religion. Except for some Fundamentalists, Christian religion in general teaches that faith saves, but it also inspires people to do the right thing. Even the most strict Fundamentalist views tend toward that understanding somewhat, but it is a bit more complicated to explain fully here.

  The Watchtower concept of "doing the right thing" or "good works," however, is what is at issue. Are the good works really public preaching, going to all the meetings,filling out service reports, belonging to the organization, etc.? Not that the Witnesses do not also care for people in practical ways, it is just that this type of care for people's needs are generally only toward those that Witnesses view as deserving, and such works are deemed less important than the aforementioned.

  As a side note, people often confuse the words in James to be a contridiction of Pauline theology that teaches that works can't save people. While James uses the same word generally rendered "works," it doesn't mean the same thing as the useless works of the Mosaic Law Paul was writing about. That is why you can find renderings of James 2:26 as found in the New Living Translation: "Just as the body is dead wihtout a spirit, so also faith is dead without good deeds." These types of "works" or "good deeds" live side by side with faith. In fact, real faith doesn't exist without them...but actions in themselves don't prove there is faith.
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  Shazard

  Anser to #2... Look close on both contexts (Pauls and James) and ask yourself if they both uses the word "faith" in the same sense? To help more, read in addition Hebrews 11 which is the most powerfull chapter on what is "faith"! Hint, no Paul and James uses different semantics of word "faith" that's why meny meny have got confused!
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  bite me

  thanks for the wonderful information.