Daniel 9:24-27

by poki 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • poki
    poki

    Hi to all, again. I´ve studied about a translation of Daniel 9:24-27 which difers to King James Version (1611); this alternate translation proceed from the Thanakh according to the Ortodoxy Jewish:

    Seventy weeks are decreed
    for your people and your holy city,
    for putting an end to transgression,
    for placing the seals on sin,
    for expiating crime,
    for introducing everlasting integrity.
    for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy.
    for anointing the Holy of Holies.
    Know this, then, and understand:
    from the time the word 'return and rebuild Jerusalem' went out
    to the coming of an anointed Prince, seven weeks.And sixty-two weeks with squares and ramparts restored and rebuild,
    but in a time of trouble.
    And after the sixty-two weeks
    an anointed one
    will be cut off, there will not be for him [...],
    the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed
    by a prince who will come.
    His end will come in catastrophe
    and, until the end, there will be war
    and all the devastation decreed.
    He will make a firm covenant with many
    for the space of a week.
    And for the space of one half-week
    he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation.
    and on the wing of the Temple will be the disastrous abomination
    until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator"
    (Dan 9:24-27).

    What do you think about this translation, and , the implication about the conclusion which it refers to Antiochus Epiphanes, ending with the anointing the Holy of Holies in year 165 b.c. , to wit , Maccabeans rededication of the Sanctuary?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    This translation is much closer to the MT than many other translations that follow Theodotion (a Greek revision of the LXX) in conflating the two anointed figures. The modern christological interpretation depends on this conflation (whereas the earliest christological interpretations did not, which acknowledged that the first anointed figure mentioned here is Jeshua son of Jozadek, the first high priest after the Exile), but the syntax as well as the logic of passage's periodization (dependent as it is on Leviticus' sabbatical/jubilee system) indicates that the threefold division of 7 + 62 + 1 is original, as the initial 7 weeks correspond to a jubilee (i.e. 49 years of exile). The version is also less biased than versions like the NWT which overtranslate mshych as "Messiah" rather than "anointed one". That imports a notion of messianism that is not necessarily assumed by the passage. The focus rather is on the Temple and the priesthood (see v. 2 and v. 24, compare also ch. 8 which is all about the cessation of offering in the Temple), such that the two anointed ones mark the restoration and the later end of the Zadokite priesthood. There are a few other difficulties in this passage that affects translation, such as the parts rendered "there will not be for him [...]" and "on the wing [of the Temple", which I believe reflect corruptions to the text, but these do not affect interpretation as dramatically as the other issues. Also, "the people of a prince who will come" is simplified to "a prince who will come". When it comes to interpretation, the key is to compare the passage side-by-side with the other visions in ch. 7, 8, and 11, and note the parallels in language. I agree that Antiochus IV is in view here. The cessation of sacrifice/oblation and the installation of the abomination in 9:27 is paralleled by 8:11-12, 11:31. As for the anointed one who is cut off, see also 11:22. There are also instructive parallels in the Animal Apocalypse, which imho was written at the same time.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Just for the record, the prophecy is complex and has multiple applications involving the first and second messiahs as well as the Jews being substituted as the messiah.

    Few question that 455 BCE begins the period of 70 weeks (490 years) ending in 36 CE. If you count down 70-week periods to our day, 1506-1996 is the time when the messiah is "cut off" after 62 weeks. 62 weeks is 434 years. The 70 weeks are divided into 62 weeks, 1 week and 7 weeks. That is, 434 years, 7 years and 49 years. 434 years after 1506 is 1940. A one week period for the "cut off" after 1940 is 1940-1947. That's when the "desolation" takes place of "Judea", that is, of the Jewish people. Thus this is a prophecy about the "great tribulation" between 1940-1947: THE HOLOCAUST.

    People who know linguistics mince over these words, but God still entrusts interpretation to his "prophets"; like me.

    It's a matter of coming into the light, or remaining in darkness after all is said and done, it turns out.

    Siaxares

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    We're coming for you too, JCanon.

    As above, so below.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    I think that is an antitypical interpretation

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07
    Thus this is a prophecy about the "great tribulation" between 1940-1947: THE HOLOCAUST.

    What events of the holocaust happened between the summer of 1945 and the end of 1947?

    And what of the victims of the holocaust prior to 1940?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here are other similar renderings by Bible scholars and translators:

    "And thou art to know and understand: From the issue of the word to build again Jerusalem unto an Anointed-Prince seven weeks. And for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, street and moat, but in the distress of the times. And after the sixty-two weeks shall be cut off an Anointed and there is naught for him. And the city and the sanctuary shall destroy [= be destroyed by] the folk of a prince that is to come, but his end in an overwhelming, and even to the end war determinted with desolations. And he shall make strong a covenant for the many for one week. And for half the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and oblation, and upon the wing [i.e. of the temple] shall be an Abomination-Appalling, even until end and determination shall pour over the Appaller" (James A. Montgomery, International Critical Commentary)

    "Know therefore and discern that from the going forth of the word to rebuild Jerusalem unto an anointed one, a prince, shall be seven weeks: and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be rebuilt with square and moat. And at the end of the times, even after the threescore and two weeks, shall an anointed one be cut off and he shall have nothing: and the city and the sanctuary shall be destroyed, together with a prince, and the end shall come with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; -- that which is determined of desolations. And a stringent statute shall be issued against the many for one week: And so for the half of the week the sacrifice and the meat offering shall cease: and in its stead shall be a horror that appalleth; and that until the annihilation that is already determined shall be poured out upon the desolator" (R. H. Charles, Critical and Exegetical Commentary)

    "Know, then, and understand this: from the utterance of the word regarding the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed leader there will be seven weeks. Then during sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, with its streets and moat, but in a time of distress. After the sixty-two weeks an anointed one will be cut down, when the city is no longer his; and the soldiers of a prince will ruin the sanctuary. Then the end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war. For one week he will make a strong alliance with many; for half a week he will abolish sarifice and oblation; and upon their place will be an appalling abomination, until the decreed ruin is poured out upon the appaller" (Anchor Bible)

    "Know therefore and understand: that from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end shall be war. Desolations are decreed. He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator" (New Revised Standard Version)

    "Know this, then and understand: from the time this message went out, 'Return and rebuild Jerusalem' to the coming of an anointed Prince, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks with squares and ramparts restored and rebuilt. And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one will be cut off -- and ... will not be for him -- the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by a prince who will come. His end will come in catastrophe and, until the end, there will be war and all the devastation decreed. He will make a firm covenant with many for the space of a week; and for the space of one half-week he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation, and on the wing of the Temple will be the disastrous abomination until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator" (Jerusalem Bible)

    "And you are to know and see the point: from the going out of word to bring back and rebuilt Jerusalem to a Warden Anointed is seven sevens; and for sixty-two sevens, it will be coming back and being rebuilt, square and moat. And in the hard pinch of the times, and after the sixty-two sevens, there will cease to be an Anointed, and the city and the sanctuary will be ravaged by the people of a warden, him who comes in; and the end of him will be with a flood; and to the end of war desolations are fated; and he will put a covenant in force for the many for one seven; and for half the seven he will bring sacrifice and meal-offering to a stop; and on a wing there will be an appalling disgustment, and so till a finish and a fate to be poured out on an appalling one" (Steven T. Byington, Bible in Living English)

    "Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of a prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator" (Norman Porteous, Old Testament Library Commentary)

    "You shall know and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem until there is an anointed ruler will be seven weeks. For sixty-two weeks it will be built again with square and moat, but in distressful times. After the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off with no one to help him. The host of a ruler who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. His end will be in a cataclysm and unto the end of the decreed war there will be desolations. He will make a strong alliance with the multitude for one week. For half the week he will suppress sacrifice and offering, and the desolating abomination will be in their place, until the predetermined destruction is poured out on the desolator" (John Collins, Hermeneia Critical and Historical Commentary)

    "You must know and understand: from the going out of a word to restore and build Jerusalem to an anointed leader there will be seven weeks. For sixty-two weeks it will be restored and rebuilt, with square and moat, but in a time of distress. After sixty-two weeks an anointed one will be cut off, having neither city nor sanctuary. A leader who comes will devastate a people, and its end will be with the flood. Until the end of the warfare, desolations are decreed. He will make a strong covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will end sacrifice and offering. Upon the wing of abominations there will be a desolator, until a decreed destruction overwhelms the desolator" (Ernest Lucus, Apollos Old Testament Commentary).

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Thus this is a prophecy about the "great tribulation" between 1940-1947: THE HOLOCAUST.

    What events of the holocaust happened between the summer of 1945 and the end of 1947?

    And what of the victims of the holocaust prior to 1940?

    The original 70 weeks, as noted, was broken up into 62 weeks (the "cut off"), 1 week and 7 weeks. 7 weeks is 49 years. The last 49 years make up the 70th week for the Jewish Covenant since the time of Moses.

    http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF (Jewish Covenant Week)

    Thus there was just one week, 7 years, in which the "great tribulation" would occur. But as Matthew 24 points out, the "DAYS WERE CUT SHORT OR ELSE NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED." That means the prophesied quota of Jews that would die during the "great tribulation" which is two-thirds (Zech 13.8) was reached, as you noted by 1945. So the tribulation, the war, was ended early, prior to the 7-year period. Had Hitler continued successful longer more Jews would have been killed, obviously. So even though the actual tribulation was cut short in 1945, the actual full restoration did not occur until 1947. Thus, as you so wide-eyedly note, yes, the Holocaust does end before the 7-year prophetic pattern. But even so, the Jews did not have a homeland to come to, and thus were still in exile until November 30, 1947.

    JCanon

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    JC,

    The Shoah did not run from 1940 to 1947.

    Because he was a Union leader, my mother's brother was sent to Dachau on 24 June 1938 and tortured to within an inch of his life.

    When the Nazis attacked the Jews during Kristallnacht in November 1938, they handled their problem with Jews by forced removal. My father was arrested on that night in Vienna and was sent to Dachau KZ. His cousin suffered the same fate.

    The Nazis handled the problem by releasing the Jews who obtained a visa to travel to another country. My father's future brother-in-law got him a visa to England. My father's cousin went to Shanghai.

    The mass slaughter began in 1942. My mother’s parents were gassed in the back of a redesigned truck on 10 May 1942. My father's parents, their daughter and her two year-old son were shot dead on 26 May 1942.

    Others were released from various Camps in 1945.

    I can only align your 1947 with my father's sister and her family. They made Aliyah in 1939, but her son was shot dead in 1947 during the Israeli War of Independence. But this was not part of the Shoah.

    So I cannot accept your dates for the Shoah.

    Doug

  • justhuman
    justhuman

    nice prophecy...

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