The bible and israel

by jacethespace 3 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jacethespace

  As Jehovahs witnesses we were told over and over that Jws are gods modern day servants today and jehovahs using us to bring salvation to the world.We were also told that the words israel and jerusalem in prophecy for our day refer to spiritual israel and jerusalem, not fleshly israel.

  But does bible prophecy show that? especially in the old testament.

  We know how Charles Taze Russell traveled to israel to try and figure out whether they were gods chosen people still.This is highlighted especially in the jws proclaimers book.And the watchtower believed that israel were still gods people up until the 30s [ if anybody has any info on this and dates please let me know as im not sure when they dropped this belief exactly].Charles Taze Russell in fact sent tracts to israel and the jews telling them that they could look forward to salvation.Intresting point is that this was after jesus had apparently give his approvall to the faithfull and discrete slave channel.

  Zechariah 12:2 says Behold i will make jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about.When they shall be in the siege both against jerusalem and against judah.12:3- And in that day will i make jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

  Is this prophecy being fullfilled today through literal israel?

  But the most intresting chapter of Zechariah is chapter 14 which speaks of the lords day and jesus second coming.It says:

  Behold the day comes and your spoil will be divided in the midst of you.2: For i will gather all nations against jerusalem to battle and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished and half of the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3:Then shall the lord go forth and fight against those nations as when he fought in the day of battle.

  Skip to verse 9 it says- And the lord shall be king over all the earth in that day shall there be one lord and his name one.

  11:And men shall dwell in it and there shall be no more utter destruction but jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

  I have always found this chapter intresting even when i was in the watchtower, but this next verse i have sometimes wondered whether it is describing a nuclear war in verse 12:- And this shall be the plague where with the lord will smite all the people that have fought against jerusalem.Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet and their eyes shall consume away in their holes and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

  But verse 16 onwards seems to suggest very strongly to me jesus second coming and his ruling the world from jerusalem.

  16:And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came against jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the king the lord of hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  I also find chapter 11 of romans very intresting where the apostle paul is asking has god cast away his people?
  1:I say then has god cast away his people?god forbid for i am also an israelite of the seed of abraham of the tribe of benjamin.2: God has not cast away his people that he foreknew.

  Speaking about the relationship between the jews and gentiles paul says at verse 11:I say then have they stumbled that they should fall.god forbid but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the gentilesfor to provoke them to jealousy.12:Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them the riches of the gentiles how much more their fullness?

  Verse 25 says - For i would not that you should be ignorant of this mystery unless you should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part is happened to israel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.26:And so all israel shall be saved as it is written there shall come out of sion the deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from jacob.27:For this is my covenant to them when i shall take away their sins.

  Verse 32 says For god has concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all.

  33:Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of god how unsearchable are his judgements and his ways past finding out.34:For who has known the mind of the lord or who has been his councillor.

  Charles Taze russell concluded that israel was not still gods chosen people today but gods ways are past finding out, was he wrong?
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  deaconbluez

  I am an active Christian Zionist and I appreciated this thread. Very good thoughts.
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  Carl_Hernz

  You will find a wide variety of thought, opinion, and exegesis on this point. While some people may feel quite adamant in regards to their interpretation, most official doctrines on the issue may not be quite as dogmatic. This is due to the fact that Christianity’s theologians generally hold that the prophecies of Israel’s blessings will still come to pass for natural Israel itself.

  While mainstream Christianity may view things similarly to the JWs except for a few important differences (in reality JWs and Russell did not invent this view, it is a basic tenet of Christian belief), those differences are significant.

  Because the Pauline epistles and the catholic letters of the New Testament make reference to Christians as “Israel,” and the book of Apocalypse uses similar language, from apostolic times to the present Christianity has seen that many of the prophecies referring to Israel as finding a spiritual fulfillment in the body of the Church.

  But the main difference from the JWs belief is that most of Christendom also subscribes to the idea that the covenant between God and Abraham, while making it possible for Gentiles to now receive the promises made by the Lord, in no way negates natural Israel from also receiving those promises eventually as well. Exactly when and how these promises will be fulfilled is where you will get the wide variety of different responses, yet at least this much is generally agreed upon in Christian theology outside of the JWs.

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that natural Israel is entitled to any of these things, however. They do not believe in a catholic salvation (meaning “all peoples included,” not any reference to the Roman Catholic Church). That is the main difference: JWs believe that only they will receive God’s promises. Mainstream Christianity believes that a lack of faithfulness on behalf of the Jews has never negated any of God’s promises in the past for Israel, and neither will it now in reference to belief in Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah.

  Footnote: While the JWs claim that they are all inclusive by means of having people of all races within their religion, the salvation described in the catholic letters of the New Testament point to all peoples being saved without limit to our current understanding of divisions and separation as exist in the world today.
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  ush419

  Ezekiel chapters 37, 38, and 39 deal with Israel, and do make one wonder especially in light of Iran's dealing with Russia (Magog??) and the eternal talk from Iran about the destruction of Israel. In fact in Josephus' history book 1 chpt. 6 para 1 it brings out that Magog was the son of Japheth who was the son of Noah. Magog founded the magogites but called by the Greeks Scythians = russians.

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