American Nuke Plants Safe

by Amazing 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    The news media has been reporting that our Nuclear Power plants are on high alert, but their reports suggest worry. Then this morning, it was reported that Three Mile Island plant near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania received a threat. So, I thought that since this is an area I am most familiar with I would post some helpful information:

    Containment Design: American Nuke Plants have three containment shields. The Outer or Seconddary Containment building, the Inner or Primary Containment, and the Vessel.

    The Secondary Containment is a normal steel structure, and will shield accidents from within, but if enough force is used from the outside, they could give way.

    The Primary Containment, however, is a very strong structure. A 1/4 thick wall design was tested with a fully fuel loaded jet crashing into it at over 500 mph. The wal was only scratched, while the plane disintegrated. The full design of the Primary Containment will withstand the load of a fully loaded 747 crashing into it.

    Vessel Design The Vessel sits inside the the Primary Containment. It holds the nuclear fuel. It is about 30 ft in diameter, with 6 ft thick high stree walls of almost solid steel. Were a plane to magically make it through the Primary Containment, and hit the Vessel, it would not break through it. The Control Rods would instantly stop the nuclear reaction, and the Vessel would flood with water, making it safe.

    Exploding Jet Fuel: But, "if" a plane made it through the Secondary and Primary Containments it would be so slowed down, that it would not be able to harm the Vessel. The burning jet fuel from the plane would seriously damage everything, but the design of the vessel would withstand this, as nuclear reactions run at super-heated conditions, and therefore the Vessel is designed to withstand these temperatures for sustained periods of months at a time. The four redundant systems in place would extinguish the jet fuel. And if those systems all failed, the on site emergency personnel and local fire departments are prepared and treained to bring the fire under control. By law, local fire departments within proximity of a nuclear plant much have the extra training and equipment to support the plant. The nuclear plant pays for this extra service.

    Military Ground Action: Some have feared that a Nuke plant could be attacked from the ground, such as with commandos taking control. Ever since our entanglements with Iran in the late 1970s, every American Nuclear plant has had a highly trained Para-Military force on hand. While working at the plant, we were trained how to support them - mostly getting out of their way - while they held practice manuevers.

    The Control Room: The heart of the plant is designed to close off the Control Room so that terrorists cannot take the nerve center. And it is equipped to house the plant personnel so that they can remain there for sustained periods.

    Artillary Attacks: Assuming that terrorists can find a way to get artillary into the USA or obtain it somehow while here, they would have to be able to penetrate the security monitoring of each nuclear plant to get close enough to start an attack. The National Guard and Army would be called in if that security zone is breeched. However, if they succeeded, the Primary Containment and Vessel would be safe and withstand expected attacks.

    Security at Entrances: American Plants have since the days of our entanglements with Iran been highly secure in both the background checks and the methods to screen out pronblems. The screening checks
    far exceed anthing ever done at US Airports. To enter you have to go through several checks, and routine Pat Downs. God help you if you have anything that could pose a threat.

    What IF Terrorists managed to take control? So what? What are they going to do? Before they could take control the plant would be in "Safe-Shut Down" mode and unable to restart without the knowledge and security controls in hand to do that. If the Terrorists managed to restart the Reactor and run it - what is the goal? To produce power? If they were attempting to run it until it failed, the safety systems would shut it down and they could not restart it. IF they could by-pass the safety systems - which is not really possible - then they could run it to met-down. So what? The Reactor cannot explode. And the Containment cannot be breeched, so it would met-down and stop.

    What if Terrorists took bombs inside Containment? What if Terrorists took control of the facility and opened Containment, and then loaded it with bombs? So what? They could not get bombs into the Vessel, and any internal bombing of the Primary Containment would not harm the Vessel.

    What IF they got into the Vessel? This requires special training and skills. And if they are not properly prepared then they would die from raidiation. Their willingness to die is not an issue, but their death would terminate their activity to harm the plant. But if they could open the Vessel and load it with bombs, then these bombs would have to be set off in a way that would cause the radioactive material to spew into the open air. And that will not happen given the Primary Containment design. The Vessel would absorb most of the expolsion. If they used a very large bomb, they could cause some serious problems and maybe send radioactive gasses into the air. If the bomb is big enough it could send material out to the public. But, for this to happen, many unlikely scenarios would have to take place.

    Effectiveness: But, bombing the inside of a Nuclear Vessel would be a waste of time and energy since such bombs would be better used and more effective at a shopping center where lots of people are there and would die.

    What about Spent Fuel? What if the Terrorists left the Plant alone, and took control long enough to get to the Spent Fuel Rods? I hope they try it. You don't go into a Nuclear Plant and take Spent Fuel Rods like they were cash from the drawer. They are long, extremelt heavy tube bundels about 30 ot 35 feet long. They are daqngerously radioactive. And once you get a fuel bundel out of the Spent Fuel Pool, then what to do with it becomes another problem. Continued handeling, loading onto a truck all are special activities that require the right equipment and training. The kind of training that a terrorists will not have, at least not in any American style plant.

    Finally:I have strong confidence that American Nuclear Plants are safe from terrorism. There could be vulnerabilities I suppose, but I would not reveal these if they existed. Terrorists seem to do things quick and dirty to take control. Yes, the Terrorists on 9-11 went through training to fly a plane, they used all other normal proceedures to board the plane, and the used simply weapons (box cutters) to take control. That is not likely to happen ever again.

    However, there are no simple ways to take control of a US Nuclear Plant even if the terrorist has some training in operating a nuclear plant. The trained terrorist in control of a plant cannot do much with it as its nature is not like a plane that can be manuevered to harm others, a nuclear plant has many fixed system and remote controls for emergencies, and terrorists attmepts to control can be too easily thwarted. And if they succeed to control, there is not much they can do but attempt to run the plant into unsafe modes forcing its automatic shut-down, or attempt to harm it in some other way. The logistics to do this makes an American nuclear plant an unlikely target.

    Psychological Attacks on Nuke Plant: I would not be surprised that a few terrorists will attempt to attack a Nuclear Plant from the exterior and cause some exterior damage. The American Media is so sensationalistic that it will cause many people to be afraid. And it is this psychological effect that I most fear.

    Amazing

  • Seven
    Seven

    Amazing, Thank you for starting a thread on this subject. I've been searcing the net for sites discussing radiological sabatoge. After visiting http://www.nci.org/nci-nt.htm I'm grateful for your input.

    You rock!!

    Seven

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    Hey Amazing,

    Worried about their planet wrecking toys now are they ROTFL! What clueless clown came up with the idea that nuclear was the way to go in powering the lifestyles of the rich and wannabe's?

    headshaking unc who recons mother nature uses fussion (implosion) rather than fission (explosion) for good reason ;)

    PS: For more info check out Victor Schwarberger <-- smile of a smug bastard.

    ****

    Yeah sweatheart these folks rock alright .. mad bloody scientists 'll rock the planet off it's hinges one day!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi UNcle: You noted, "headshaking unc who recons mother nature uses fussion (implosion) rather than fission (explosion) for good reason ;)"

    Yes, Fusion is the way to go, if we ever get there. Still in the R & D stages. Also, Fission is NOT an explosion. It is a Controlled Chain Reaction and by its nature and design a nuclear power plant cannot blow up or explode. - Amazing

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi SevenOfNine: I visited the site you mention. While it seemingly deals with nuclear power plants, its actual concern relates more to obtaining polutonium from plants to make bombs. A very different issue. One quote from that site stated, ""A terrorist with a little technical know-how and 20 pounds of smuggled plutonium could make a bomb powerful enough to destroy a city. That's what we should be worried about."

    As I mentioned above, getting to the spent fuel and the process of carting some of it off is a logistical nightmare. First, most American nuclear plants do not produce Plutonium Oxide, which is needed for weapons grade bombs. But, weapons Grade Plutonium can be used in a commercial nuclear plant if the plant undergoes significant reactor modifications and changes in operating procedures.

    Some certain reactors produce weapons grade plutonium. I am aware of which ones some of these are, but not all. And you can bet you life that these facilities are more highly guarded and protected.

    But, assuming that a Terrorist was able to obtain 20 Lbs of weapons grade Plutionium, the means to handle it are very rigorous, and not like you can stash it in a metal breifcase and walk around with it.

    The Real Concern: is with Iraq! Saddam Hussein bitches about the USA-UN sanctions and not letting his country get back to normal. Well, he need to stop trying to produce weapons grade Plutonium and other chemical and boilogical weapons - like Anthrax. Simple as that.

    Terrorists are not going to get their Plutonioum from the USA or other western powers. they will get it from Iraq or possibly Iran. These two nations also imported some nuclear weapons from the former Soviet Union. When the USSR fell apart, some of this stuff was lost in their failed processes and reportedly taken to Iraq and Iran.

    The Good News: Weapons grade Plutonium, especially the Rissian variety, has a very short shelf life - usually 5 years - before it becomes useless for bomb elements. And unless these rogue states or terrorists can obtain freshly enriched Plutonium Oxide, they will be out of luck. Transportation, handeling, delievery, and denotation are also serious logistical problems not easily solved. So, detection along the way is very likely. And if any nation can monitor and detect such operations it is the USA. And we have the technology to do so. That is how we know that Iraq is still screwing around with Nuclear material. The problem is that Saddam keep interferring with the UN inspections and efforts to remove his nuclear capability.

    Hope that helps. - Amazing

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Fascinating stuff, Amazing!

    It seems obvious that American nuclear plants have significantly better safeguards against internal failure and external threats than Soviet plants did. What was so wrong with the Chernobyl plant that it could fail so miserably?

    AlanF

  • Seven
    Seven

    Amazing, "The real concern: is with Iraq!" No argument here. I always thought that Saddam's dragging his arse over plant inspections was an effort to buy time for his people to place and withdraw the fuel cells
    before and after these inspections(difficult job) as well as an admission of guilt. How accurate are the tests used to determine if the fuel has been replaced and the methods used to measure the grade?

    seven

    Good post Amazing!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Alan: You asked, "What was so wrong with the Chernobyl plant that it could fail so miserably?" I am glad you asked about Chernobyl. The IAEC report was required reading for my position in safe-shut down systems. I still have the report my file. About 250 pages.

    Essentially, the Soviets and Americans parted in reactor design in the 1950s, with the USA going for light-water moderated reactors, with triple safe containment design. The Soviets, using a lower budget and on a faster time schedule, went with Graphite Moderated systems with nothing but Reactor Vessel as the only containment.

    Chernobyl operations, unlike American, could be taken over by government-military engineers for additional purposes. And in the case of Chernobyl, the government engineer vetoed the Plant Operators and disabled ALL safety systems to run the reactor to levels beyond its design. He accompished this in the first round of testing, and the operators managed to get the plant back into control, then he demanded a second test. They had to follow his orders. And the Reactor had a non-nuclear over-pressure explosion which lifted the Vessel Head part way off of its mounting flange. This allowed reactor core material to jetison out and hit the cheap metal shack housing of the exterior building. Some of this material landed on the roof as well. Clean-up was a monumental mess.

    American plant are run by Licensed Operators who have to be retrained and recertified every 3 months. They have ultimate authority and no government experiment may be conducted. Three Mile Island was the most serious accident and a 'worst case' scenario. It had core melt. This is the most severa accident that can happen to an American design. Even with failure of some systems, poor operations and human error, the accident was still contained, and the total off-site does was due to some small allowed releases that caused the equivalent of about 3 dental x-rays within the 5 mile zone.

    Whereas Chernobyl was ghastly contamination that resulted in ruining some of the finest farmland in the world, and sent a radioactive cloud that was detected as far away as Finland. Some of the children from the Chernobyl were brought to our plant at Trojan, in Oregon for testing and monitoring because the Soviets were so ill-equipped. The men who gave the orders for continued testing of Chernobyl were all found guilty in Soviet courts and executed.

    The Soviets finally shut down all of Chernobyl's reactors and they no longer produce any power from that site. I am not sure if Russia is using any nuclear plant right now. They may still, but I don't know.

    The other nations that opted to use nuclear plants for electric production follow various American designs. Canada uses our same safety rules, as does Great Britain. France uses Advanced Fast Flux Breeder Reactors. These are normally cooled with Liquid Sodium as the moderator. The USA has two experimental Breeders, one in Tennesee and one in Richland, Washington. I worked on the FFTF in Richland. It is a test reactor only used to test various fuels and medical isotops. The USA abandoned its Breeder program when nuclear became politically unpopular due to anti-nuclear propaganda.

    I think the French are wise in using breeders. they are not only build with triple safe containments, but burn far less fuel, and generate little to no waste compared to a water cooled BWR or PWR.

    When you get a chance, give me a call for some updating on other issues. Thanks. - Amazing

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi SevenOfNine: You noted, "I always thought that Saddam's dragging his arse over plant inspections was an effort to buy time for his people to place and withdraw the fuel cells before and after these inspections(difficult job) as well as an admission of guilt."

    I am not sure what Saddam is doing exactly. Some years ago when they were constructing a commercial nuclear power plant, the Israelis learned that it wouild also be used for weapons production, and bombed it. I have not followed this much other than I am aware the Iraq obtained materials from the former Soviet Union.

    My impression is that UN inspectors were supposed to examine suspected sites and upon discovery of any construction, materials, or production, order the total dismanteling and removal of any biological, chemical, or nuclear capability. So, I would suspect that discovery of any systems, regardless of what it installed or not, would become subject for dismanteling or destruction. Supposedly, this is among the reasons that the USA bombs Iraqi sites from time to time. They knock air defense systems, but I have no doubt that they are knocking out other systems, including any sign of nuclear capability.

    You asked, "How accurate are the tests used to determine if the fuel has been replaced and the methods used to measure the grade?"

    Speaking of what Iraq is doing, I have no idea. In American reactors, fuel is replaced and recycled generally every four months. 1/3rd of the fuel is removed and sent to the spent fuel pool. 1/3rd is rotated to improve flux, and 1/3 is new fuel rods.

    As far as measurement, I presume you mean if the Iraqis were creating weapons grade Plutonium Oxide, and how accurate the methods in determining this? I would hope that they were not getting that far. But, Plutonium Oxide is a well known Isotope and the measuring methods are very accurate as far as I know. I have not personally conducted those kinds of tests. My testing were all done with basic elements, such as Cobalt 60 (gamma source). Sometimes we used Electron Beam systems to simulate the effects of Beta.

    Our personal Rad counter dosemitery devices are designed to detect Alpha and Beta, and gamma doses, but do not distinguish the source type. If we were contaminated, then a Rad techs took out their equipment to check the source.

    As far as Iraqis moving fuel rods in and out to obtain certain plutonium oxide, and then replecing them new unenriched fuel, well, I think this would not be happening with a commercial reactor. All the fuel installed is already enriched to the design to allow proper chain reaction for boiling the water. Some commerical reactors, if modified correctly, can "burn" Plotonium Oxide. We discussed buying some left over Russian weapons grade Plutonium to burn in our reactors at Richland, Wshington. We would have had to modify the reactor, which is a GE BWR design.

    But, I am not sure how Plutonium Oxide could be created in a nuclear Reactor, which does not enrich, but burns through the fission process. So, my guess is that what Iraq was doing was using the cover of a nuclear plant, and on the side in some secure location in the plant, enriching materials into weapons grade plutonium. But, since the Israelis bombed the only reactor under construction that I know about, then I have to imagine that Iraq must have built a plant elsewhere specifically used for fuel enrichment. This is where I would suspect they would try to make Plutonium Oxide.

    Hope that helps. - Amazing

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