re JW’s lady came back/Alpha & Omega

by Guest with Questions 4 Replies latest jw friends

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  Guest with Questions

  Part 2

  Alpha & Omega

  : I asked the husband who the Alpha & Omega was. I read Rev 1:8, (I should have continued reading v12-18), Rev 21:6-7, Rev 22:12-13 We all agreed that God (or Jehovah/I prefer Yahweh) was the Alpha & Omega.

  First & Last:

  Then I read all the First & Last.

  Isaiah 44:6

  clearly shows it’s God,

  Rev 1:17

  clearly shows it’s Jesus

  Rev 2:8 clearly shows it’s Jesus

  Rev 22:13 because we already established that God was Alpha & Omega it must be referring to God.

  His answer was that first could be applied to a lot of things such as Peter was the first disciple. I was totally dumbfounded and asked him if he could truly believe what he had just said. I hadn’t thought to ask if Peter was the last disciple. Was Adam then also the First & Last?

  Beginning & End: I read Rev 21:6-7, Rev 22:13 again. My understanding that these verses apply to God.

  Who is Coming? Then I asked who was coming?

  Rev 4:8..... is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.

  Rev 22:7 I am coming soon!

  Rev 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon!

  Rev 22:20 Yes, I am coming soon. Amen, Come, Lord Jesus.

  My feeling is that Jesus is coming soon but he explained that God is coming but that Jesus is actually representing him? (something to that effect) Maybe somebody can explain what he meant.

  Alpha & Omega, First & Last, Beginning & End: to me they are all the same thing
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  Creeper

  I think no matter how we look at the bible, if we believe in it, we must accept that Jesus is one with God. Jesus said "I and the Father are one" and that is the unity that I base my belief in. It doesn't matter whether you place the title alpha and omega on either the Father or the son, they are one, and therefore can share that title. Since Jesus speaks for God, according to the bible book of Hebrews chapter 1, then in that respect Jesus can say that in his revelation from his father.

  Creeper
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  Gopher

  Before I give a possible explanation, my caveat is that I think people can make the Bible support almost any position they want to take, including for and against the Trinity. Also I personally don't care much about the trinity debate any more.

  When I was a JW, this part from Revelation made me believe that God and Jesus were separate/distinct:

  Look at Rev. 1:8, and you see that the Alpha and Omega = the person which "is, was and is to come".

  Then go back to Rev 1:4,5 where John wishes grace from that person who "is, was and is to come", AND the seven spirits, AND from Jesus Christ.

  So (at least in my old JW view) the "AND" separates the Alpha/Omega person who is was and is to come from Jesus. (Unless you want to argue that the Alpha/Omega person = the seven spirits = Jesus, then you have not a Trinity but a 9-inity or something.)
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  Guest with Questions

  Gopher:

  Before I give a possible explanation, my caveat is that I think people can make the Bible support almost any position they want to take, including for and against the Trinity. Also I personally don't care much about the trinity debate any more. When I was a JW, this part from Revelation made me believe that God and Jesus were separate/distinct: Look at Rev. 1:8, and you see that the Alpha and Omega = the person which "is, was and is to come".

  If you continue on reading v9 thru 18 John heard a voice behind him, when he turned around he saw someone "like the son of man" (here John describes the same person as in Daniel 7:9), this person says to John do not to be afraid I am the First & the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!

  Then go back to Rev 1:4,5 where John wishes grace from that person who "is, was and is to come", AND the seven spirits, AND from Jesus Christ.

  The seven spirits are before the throne, not on the throne. I don’t know what the meaning is, the 7 Churches (which was already mentioned), 7 Beautitudes, Fullness & Completeness? My NIV says that it could be translated Sevenfold Spirit. Maybe somebody else knows the meaning of this.

  So (at least in my old JW view) the "AND" separates the Alpha/Omega person who is was and is to come from Jesus. (Unless you want to argue that the Alpha/Omega person = the seven spirits = Jesus, then you have not a Trinity but a 9-inity or something.)

  Then who do you believe is coming? The very last lines in Rev states that Jesus is coming.
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  Gopher

  Hi Guest with Questions.

  I'm not a Bible-believer personally now. But I grew up JW and pretty much understand their thinking on the identity of God and Jesus.

  I was just trying to give you a little perspective from their point of view, maybe it'll help.

  So about your question:

  Then who do you believe is coming? The very last lines in Rev states that Jesus is coming.

  If I were JW, I would agree with you that Jesus is the one coming. But then they would also have some explanation for how the Father (although separate from Jesus in their view) also comes. I cannot remember the exact account, but earlier in the Bible some king/dignitary sent a representative (he was too busy being king to appear in person) somewhere, and later it was stated that the king/dignitary himself came. (Sorry I'm being so vague, the details fade after 7 years away from the organization.) Anyhow, if someone comes as a representative of someone greater, than the JW's would explain that that someone greater could be veiwed as having 'come'. (Hope that makes a little sense.)

  If you want to study / prepare for a discussion with JW's on this point, you could go to the Watchtower's official website (www.watchtower.org) and type 'Trinity' in the search box.

  I will guess that once you reach a certain point in the discussion, that you will reach a stalemate. That's the way I always saw it happen when I went door-to-door with the JW's. They're pretty stubborn about their viewpoint on God's identity.