The Bible fallacy of free will

sinis

I was thinking about this the other day and it seems the bible or JW fallacy that god grants free will to humans is completely wrong. Free will means God does NOT get involved in human affairs. So then I started thinking about the tower of Babel, the Flood, etc., and how God actually intervened and CHANGED the course of human history/future by such actions, thereby affectively negating any human (on the personal level) decisions as to loyalty (god or nimrod as an example). Thoughts?

Narkissos

Well, as you yourself point out it can hardly be called a Bible fallacy... There's at least as much against the concept of free will as there is for it in the Bible texts.

under_believer

Free will is ipso facto impossible in any single-universe reality in which a) time travel or b) omniscience or c) absolute determinism exist.

I believe in free will. Therefore, I do not believe in a) time travel, b) omniscience, or c) absolute determinism.

Most monotheists believe that God is omniscient, though I'm not convinced that the Bible says that. In their worldview, no free will exists. And in fact many of them profess belief in fate. However the Witnesses reject fate and predestination, which means they can't logically teach that God is omniscient. And yet they do.

XJW4EVR

Free will. It is an interesting concept. However, before we begin discussion, we must define the will, and we most what it is free from and to.

If you are thinking that free will is human autonomy, then you have a problem, because no where in the Bible is that taught.

I personallly, do not subscribe to what is called, today, free will. I hold to the sovereignty of God in all things.

I hope that we will be able to discuss this topic further.

LongHairGal

ExJWforever:

I also have a problem with today's idea of "free will". Most people think it means they should be able to do anything they want. It is like the story about the guy who felt he should be free to punch somebody else in the nose. The answer from the other guy was that "freedom" ends where somebody else's nose begins. So people's freedom is relative. The problem with religionists is what this boundary is. To a religious nazi, maybe there is no freedom at all. Maybe to the true god, there really isn't any either - in which case I am doomed - and I would argue why the hell did he create us?

My feeling of freedom is generally about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and not doing harm to my fellow man.

LHG

Deputy Dog

XJW4EVR

Does God have the freedom to create sin. Any scriptures?

XJW4EVR

XJW4EVR
Does God have the freedom to create sin. Any scriptures?

While your question is a good one, and needs to be discussed, I am of the understanding that this thread is about the anthropological, and not the theological. However I will attempt to answer your question. God cannot create anything that is outside of His nature, e.g. He can't create a rock so big that He can't lift it, He can't create squared circles, etc. Therefore since God is perfect He cannot create something imperfect. One quick note, nowhere in the Bible does man's perfection imply immutability. That idea has its origins in Greek philosophy.

I am not sure if you are proposing that God is the author of sin, which is not the historical Christian view, why don't you offer Scriptures supporting your ascertion?

Deputy Dog

XJW4EVR

While your question is a good one, and needs to be discussed, I am of the understanding that this thread is about the anthropological, and not the theological.

Maybe we should start a new thread.

Therefore since God is perfect He cannot create something imperfect.

I would simply say that in giving the Law (which is perfect), God creates sin, knowing man is unable to keep that law.

Man or "governments" do much the same thing when they make laws.

I am not sure if you are proposing that God is the author of sin,

I'm not sure myself, however, I find nothing in scripture that would prohibit such a thing. What essential would that violate?

Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before there were any laws. But no record of sin can be kept when there are no laws.

Sin was in the world before God told Adam not to eat. In other words the law exsposed the sin that was there.

XJW4EVR

You brought some interesting questions, and I wanted to give them some thought before I replied. Here goes:

Therefore since God is perfect He cannot create something imperfect.
I would simply say that in giving the Law (which is perfect), God creates sin, knowing man is unable to keep that law.
Man or "governments" do much the same thing when they make laws.

While God created the law, He did not create sin. Sin was introduced by a third party, namely Satan. The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I don't know if your second statement neccessarily follows the first. Perhaps you could elaborate.

I am not sure if you are proposing that God is the author of sin,
I'm not sure myself, however, I find nothing in scripture that would prohibit such a thing. What essential would that violate?
Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before there were any laws. But no record of sin can be kept when there are no laws.
Sin was in the world before God told Adam not to eat. In other words the law exsposed the sin that was there.

I do not agree that sin was in the created world that Adam existed in. Though Satan had free reign on the earth, he was not of that creative process. Sin was made evident, through the first law, as I mentioned above.

I am not sure if this answers your questions. I'm not 100% comfrotable with the answers, but I think we can continue to give it the college try.

Deputy Dog

EXJW4EVR

While God created the law, He did not create sin. Sin was introduced by a third party, namely Satan. The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

So what was the first sin? Was the sin in Adam before the law? If not, why did God give that law in the first place?

Rom 5:20

But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,

For example, until a few years ago, in my state it was not a "sin"(illegal) to drive a car without seatbelts. Then the seatbelt law came, and now it is a "sin" to drive without seatbelts. Man created a "sin" the same way God did. I'm not judging God or saying he has committed sin by giving the law.

I do not agree that sin was in the created world that Adam existed in. Though Satan had free reign on the earth, he was not of that creative process. Sin was made evident, through the first law, as I mentioned above.

Are you saying you don't agree with:

Romans 5:13Sin was in the world before there were any laws. But no record of sin can be kept when there are no laws.

Here are some more scriptures

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom (peace), and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Here God clearly says he creates evil, Job clearly understood it this way as well.

Job 2:10

But he said to her, You speak as one of the foolish ones speak. What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

As for God creating sin, these verses clearly say that God created everything. Why is sin not included in everything? And if not sin, what else is not included in "all things"?

Eph 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col 1:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I am not sure if this answers your questions. I'm not 100% comfrotable with the answers, but I think we can continue to give it the college try.

Thanks! I hope you don't think I'm just pulling your chain, this same debate may get a pastor friend of mine fired.

D Dog

The Bible fallacy of free will

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