Grace versus Ephesians 4th & 5th Chapters

by TheListener 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    For those who are believers in God and the Bible:

    If we have God's Grace and have been purchased by Jesus shed blood why do we have to be careful not to do the things mentioned in Ephesians and elsewhere in order to not be excluded from God's Kingdom?

    For example, Ephesians tells us not to tell obscene jokes, or commit immorality, etc etc for if we do we will not inherit God's Kingdom. Yet, in Ephesians chapter 2 we are told that being saved has nothing to do with our own works but only by God's Grace.

    This seems to be a question I've been struggling with for some time. And no, it's not because I want to tell obscene jokes, commit immorality, etc etc and still make it into God's kingom - you sickos. Wait, is that possible?

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Hi Listener

    I see this in the light of what is called Paul's 'Already but not yet' theology - we have assurance of salvation but our salvation is not completed until the last day (hence all the other confusing parts of Paul's letters eg about the Spirit being the deposit - literally a 'down-payment' for our salvation and continuing to work out our salvation).

    In this 'already but not yet' state, we need to allow the Spirit/God's grace to work with us to produce the so-called fruits of the Spirit and the desire to do bad in our lives will eventually be overcome by the desire for good.

    But if we know that something is bad and willfully continue doing it, we are opposing the Holy Spirit and grace working within us - so we need to avoid doing these things.

    Have you done an in depth study of Romans - especially ch 6-8? I think those chapters might explain more clearly salvation and the need not to sin.

  • zack
    zack

    It's always possible that Paul was simply stating his own thoughts, and not God's: and because of this you see the seeming contradiction. Paul was a Pharisee and I suspect he had difficulty in keeping the works oriented thinking out of his theology. Also, it seems he drove himself pretty hard, pummeling his own body. Pummelling would not necessarily fit into the idea of a light load and kindly yoke.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Every theology has to deal with contradictions and paradoxes. Either by explaining them away or by maintaining them as constitutive of the essential divine mystery.

    One characteristic of Johannine theology is that it holds the contradiction to the point of the almost unbearable. It can say in the same breath "we all sin" and "whoever is born from Him cannot sin". Simplistic theology like the WT's cannot bear that and explains it away by the shallow notion of practicing sin -- turning the mystery into casuistics.

    If we consider the Pauline and post-Pauline corpus it may be interesting to note an evolution on the idea of "salvation".

    In the "authentic" (or earlier, if you prefer) Pauline epistles salvation is future (we will be saved, Romans 5:9f; 9:27; 10;9 etc.) or an ongoing present process (we are being saved, 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2; 2 Corinthians 2:15); the only time it appears in the past (aorist) is characteristically Romans 8:24: "For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen?"

    Only in the later Ephesians it becomes a perfect tense, 2:5,8, implying a permanent status of "being saved" (cf. also the aorist in the still later 2 Timothy 1:3; Titus 3:5). This is a completely different perspective imo.

    Still, in both cases the paradox is related to participation in the mystery of salvation (the "body" of the resurrected Christ). Only "in him" does "salvation" occur -- whether it is regarded as an ongoing process or a status. The Protestant reading of Paul (and the post-Pauline) tends to obscure this mystery by reducing salvation to the individual (resulting in endless questions whether somebody is saved or not, or whether one can "lose" his/her "salvation"). This is not the Pauline (or even post-Pauline) point: there is a "salvation" in which one can share -- sooner or later, more or less.

  • Mikeus
    Mikeus

    TheListener - Sad Emo gave a great answer, and I'd like to share what I understand about this topic.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
    Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    All throughout Paul's writing in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians we see him admonishing his readers that "works" or "merit" will not gain you salvation. When Paul the Apostle was Saul the Pharisee, he believed in quite the opposite. As we see in Philippians 3:5,6 Paul was a man of strict self-discipline and zeal for the Jewish Law. But when he became a follower of Christ, he announced that all his education and heritage were a loss and "rubbish". Why? He goes on to explain in 3:9 -

    Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

    The Jews of that time (and still many people today) were relying on themselves, through there own effort, for righteousness and purity before God, instead of relying on God. This is why Paul constantly exhorts his readers to get rid of this idea of autonomy and self-reliance, and look to God and God alone as their Savior.

    So if good works can't gain salvation, then bad works can't lose it, right? Right! At the end of Romans chapter 7, Paul defines the struggle between the righteousness of the reborn spirit and the sinful nature of the flesh. Tying into that, Romans 8:1 tells us that Christ does not condemn the Christian when he fails (c.f. 1 John 1:9). With this is in mind, we look at Ephesians chapters 4 and 5. Paul tells Christians to put away all sinful action, so that we may be imitators of God as we are children of God. Paul wanted the Ephesians to separate themselves from the pagan world around them, showing the world that they were under a better influence (the Spirit) and walked the path of the "new man" in Christ. Eph 5:2 tells us to walk as Christ walked (in love). This is in sync with the two greatest commandments. All the actions Paul lists are in disobedience of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, might, and body (Matt 22:37; Mar 12:30; 1 Cor 6:19,20; Rom 12:1).

    For a person to accept Christ as their Redeemer and then to continue in willful disobedience to the message of righteousness (the message being to walk in love) is a slap in Jesus' face, as stated in Hebrews 10:26. John writes in 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 that a true Christian, who has received the regenerative Holy Spirit, simply cannot forsake the desires of God. This does not mean the Christian will not sin (literally "miss the mark"), because as Sad Emo noted, the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit is a progressive process (the theological term is sanctification i.e. being cleansed of sinful desire). John only means to tell us that as we are sanctified, our desire will be to please God and not our flesh.

    The root of all these writings are dealing with an issue of the heart. The man who professes Christ as Savior and means it in his heart will naturally conform to the desires of the Spirit and the new man, while the man who professes Christ with his mouth but does not with his heart will continue to walk in darkness, but at the same time proclaim he is sinless. John identifies and warns against this in 1 John 1:6-9. A great illustration of this condition of heart is James chapter 2. Here we see outlined a person who professes faith in Christ, yet there is no fruit of the Holy Spirit in their life. Here the author James proclaims this to be a "dead" faith.

    This was really long, I know, but I hope that helped a little. :)

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I have been really contemplating the posts I have received on this thread.

    If those that are willingly sinning have a 'dead faith' then they I they would be purposefully excusing themselves from life in God's kingdom.

    In Ephesians 4 and 5 (5:5) Paul is explicit in saying that those who are committing sins (he lists them, I won't) will not be in the kingdom of God.

    So, is one proper understanding this:

    If we have real faith it will save us. Real faith will manifest itself in our life's course - we'll not be wanton sinners but be on the road to allowing God's holy spirit to produce it's fruitage in us.

    If we profess faith but in fact do not have it we will, at some point along the path of our life, show ourselves for what we are.

    Thus we cannot be saved by works because the spirit is not in us; but we cannot have God's spirit and be one who sins willingly or we risk losing God's spirit and our place in his kingdom.

    Being an imperfect sinner would not make it a foregone conclusion that we couldn't be in God's kingdom.

    What this tells me is that we have to know and appreciate Jesus sacrifice and how he paid the price for our sin, live in accordance with Godly principles and we will be present in God's kingdom. However, if we are doing this and we sin, even grievously, we can, by virtue of Christ's sacrifice be forgiven and remain on the road to life.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    BTT

    It's been awhile since this I created this topic and a lot of new christian posters are around.

    I would love to hear some thoughts on this topic.

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