I am in a debate with Korean JW's over the divinity of Jesus. I showed them tons of scripture that imply that Jesus is divine. They reluctantly accepted those and argue that Jesus may be a "mighty" God, not "almighty" God and that Jehovah alone is almighty. What is the best way to rebutt their argument?
What is the best way to rebutt JW's argument that Jesus is not "almighty"?
by ukescott 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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A Paduan
No one can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit
.......and leave it at that..........it's just how it is
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..blessed be you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you
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KAYTEE
Ukescott
You may have already quoted these scriptures but I would use Philippians 2v6…who, although he was existing in Gods form gave no consideration to a seizure namely that he should be equal to God.
Phil. 2v9 ….For this very reason God exalted him to a superior position…………..
Would he have given himself a higher position if he was already in that position.
1Cor 15v 28
Mark 13v 32 etc.
KT
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Shaolu
I'd suggest comparing Revelation 1:17,18 with 4:8, 22:12-16, and Isaiah 44:6. Those four scriptures alone make it pretty clear. Here's a study from "Pilgrimage Through the Watchtower" (Chapter 6) by Kevin Quick that might be useful...
Jehovah is the only true God (undisputed).
Jesus is the creator (Gen 1:26-27, Is 44:24, John 1:3, Rom 11:36, John 1:10, Eph 3:9, Col 1:15-16 [cp. Ps 89:27, Gen 41:51-52, Jer 31:9], Heb 1:8,10, 3:3-4) and sustainer (Col 1:17, Heb 1:3) of all things. He is the Savior (Is 43:11, Is 45:21, Hos 13:4, Titus 1:3,4, 2:13, 3:4, Titus 3:6, 2 Pet 1:1). He gives things that only God can give (John 1:12-13, Rev 2:23). He is the judge of all (John 5:22,23, 2 Cor 5:10) and has authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7,10, Luke 5:21, 5:24, 1 Cor 8:12, Eph 4:32). He is all-seeing (1 Ki 8:39, Rev 2:23), omniscient (1 Ki 8:39, Matt 9:4, 12:25, Mark 2:8, Luke 6:8, 9:47, John 11:1, Col 2:2-3, Rev 2:23 [cp. 1 Ki 8:39]), and omnipresent (Matt 18:20, 28:20). Jesus was eternally preexistent (Micah 5:2, John 1:1, Col 1:17, Heb 7:3) and He never changes (Heb 1:8,10, 13:8). It is proper to serve Him (John 12:26, Rom 1:1, 1 Cor 4:1, 2 Cor 5:15, Gal 1:10, Phil 1:1, Col 3:24, 4:12, Jas 1:1, Jude 1), to pray to Him (John 14:14 [Kingdom Interlinear], Acts 7:59-60, 9:14, 9:20-21, 22:16, 22:17-19, Rom 10:9, 11-13, 1 Cor 1:2, 2 Cor 12:8-9, 1 Ti 1:12, Rev 22:20), to give Him glory (Is 42:8, 48:11, Dan 7:13-14, John 1:14, 5:22-23, 11:4, 13:31-32, 16:13-15, 17:5, Acts 3:13, Phil 2:9, Col 1:16, 2 Thess 1:12, 2 Pet 3:18, Rev 1:5-6, 5:11-14), and to worship Him (Matt 2:2,8,11, 4:10, 14:33, 28:9,16-17, John 9:38, Heb 1:6, Rev 5:8, 14:7 [cp. Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10, 22:8-9]). Jesus is Lord (Deut 10:17, Matt 12:8, John 20:27-28, Rom 10:9,11-13, Eph 4:4-5, James 2:1, Rev 17:14, 19:16) and is sovereign with His Father (Matt 25:31, 28:18, John 3:31,35, 13:3, 16:15, 17:10, Phil 2:9-11, Heb 1:2, 2:8, Rev 22:3). Being the Son of God (John 5:18, 10:28-33,36), He is also truly God (Deut 32:36,39, Is 9:6, 10:21, 43:10, 44:6 [cp. Is 48:12, Rev 1:17-18, 2:8, 21:6-7, 22:12-16,20], Matt 1:23, 13:41, John 1:1, 2:19,21 [cp. Acts 2:24], 5:18, 8:19,28,58-59 [cp. Ex 3:14; LXX], 10:28-33, 12:44, 13:19, 14:7-9, 15:13, 18:4-6, 20:28,29, Acts 20:28, Eph 3:19, Phil 2:6, Col 2:9, 1 Ti 3:15-16, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:3,4,8 [cp. Ps 45:6], 3:1-4, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Rev 22:1-4) and Jehovah (Zech 2:8-11, 11:12-13 [cp. Matt 26:14-15], 12:1,10 [cp. Rev 1:7], 14:3-5 [cp. Matt 25:31, Acts 1:11-12], 14:5 [cp. 1 Thess 3:13], Matt 3:3, Mark 1:2-3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23, Luke 1:76 [cp. Is 40:3], Matt 21:15-16 [cp. Ps. 2:6], John 17:11,12, Rom 10:9,11-13 [cp. Joel 2:32], Phil 2:9, 1:4, 1:8,10 [cp. Ps 102:22-25]), together with His Father.
The Holy Spirit is a Person (Matt 3:16, 10:20, Mark 1:10, Luke 12:12, John 1:32, 14:16-17,26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13-15, Acts 1:16, 5:3,9, 10:19-20, 15:28, 20:23, Rom 8:16, 1 Cor 12:11, Eph 4:30, Heb 3:7, Heb 10:15, Rev 22:17), and is God (Gen 1:2 [cp. vs. 1], Matt 12:32, Luke 12:10, John 14:26, Acts 1:16 [cp. Heb 1:1], Acts 5:3-4, 28:25 [cp. Heb 1:1], 2 Cor 13:14, Heb 10:15-17) together with the Father and with the Son.
The Old Testament in several places indicates plurality in the Godhead (Gen 1:1,2,3, 1:26, 3:22, 11:7,9, Gen 18, 19:24, Ex 23:20-23 [cp. 1 Cor 10:4], Is 48:12,16, 63:7-14, Zech 2:8-11, 3:2]). As mentioned above, the Bible indicates both the deity of Christ and the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit. These factors, together with the deity of the Father (undisputed), produce a description of the Godhead in trinity. Especially in the New Testament, these three Persons are repeatedly spoken of as cooperating collectively (Matt 3:16-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, Matt 28:19, Luke 1:35, John 3:34-35, John 14:26, 16:13-15, Acts 2:32-33, 38-39, Rom 15:16,30, 1 Cor 12:4-6, 2 Cor 3:4-6, 13:14 [cp. 1 John 1:3], Gal 4:4-6, Eph 4:4-6, Heb 10:12,15, 1 Pet 1:2). -
moggy lover
I suppose the best thing would be is to acknowledge that indeed they do have a point, and do not try to convince them otherwise. An appreceation of the deity of Christ is not achieved soley through a tiresome process of bandying about an x number of proof texts, especially if one uses OT references. If indeed it were so easy, then we would not have Unitarians. There has to be something... I dont know.... a "feel" an "awareness" It simply is'nt a mind game. Its deeper, and it took me a hell of a long time to accept.
Probably the best approach is to accept the biblical limitations. So Christ is not called ALmighty God, especially in the OT. The point is to accept what the text at Isa 9:6 means when it refers to Him as "Mighty" God. As a Jew, who did Isa believe the "mighty" God to be? Not what the followers of the current institution called the WTS, here in the 21st C make it mean, but Isaiah himself, 2600 years ago. Who was this mighty God to him?
For instance he prophesied that a remnant of Israelites would "return to the Mighty God" [10:21], who is also the Yahweh of verse 20, called the "Holy One" of Israel. We, from the standpoint of the 21stC could argue, with at least some justification, that since Christ is the "MG" of Isa 9:6, then this must be Christ here.
I find the adjective at vs 20 interesting. It was once pointed out to me that Yahweh here is only called the "Holy" one. He is not called the "Holiest" One. Ask the WT follower if there is a difference. In fact the term "holiest" does occur, once, in the NWT at Ps 46:4, and it does NOT refer to Yahweh! So, since He is not the "Holiest" One, simply the Holy One, then He must also be less than almighty since He is also simply called "Mighty" God at 10:21.
The interesting thing at Isa 9:6, is not that Christ is called "Mighty" God, but that He is called Mighty "God" Did those Israelites of old bandy the word "God" around so carelessly that it could mean anything that the WTS wants it to mean? Is there a difference between being a "Mighty" God, and being an "Almighty God"? If there is, then why leave it at that adjective? Hmmm? what about "Holy" and "Holiest"
I mean could Yahweh simply be a "nice" god and not be the "nicest"? Let the WT follower know that making artificial distictions in adjectival expressions can be a two edged sword.
Oddly enough, there is a text that has foxed the WTS and we might as well use it. As with so much about the Deity of Christ, it concerns the Gospel of John. [5:19] With almost unrestrained glee they will accept the first portion of this text because the Son says He does nothing of "His own initiative", suggesting, to the WTS system of thinking, some sort of inferiority on the part of the Son.
But let us continue on... because in the latter part of the verse, never actually commented on by the WT, the Son says. "For whatever things the Father does, the Son does, and in like Manner" Hmmm... hold on. Am I hearing right? You mean The Son can do what the Father does? But the Father is Almighty, is that not so? How can the Son possibly do whatEVER the Father does? Not some things the Father does, not most things, but whatever things. The things that the Father does is predicated on his Infinite power. But if, as He says, the Son can duplicate that then He must be .....No?
To suggest that the Son does only what the Father permits him to do is Interpreting the text, not reporting it. The point is simply that Jesus did not say I can do Whatever the Father permits me to do, and no more. So where the first part of the text rightly points out the subordination of the Son, it also rightly points out His equality of ability
Anyway, as I said it is not just a question of proof texts. The WT will never cease from inventing texts to deny the Deity of Christ. Don't be surprised if they say... "Ah but Christ is simply "A" Mighty God, but Yahweh is "the" Mighty God" etc it will never end.
Cheers
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A Paduan
They see their own sons as inferior
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Black Sheep
If, in the beginning, Jesus was a god and in Isaiah 45 Jehovah says that besides him there is no other god, then who is Jesus.... a false god? Jehovah???
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vomit
I live in Japan, and have had a few run ins with the JWs here.
Although I can't give you scriptures. If English is not their native language, the meaning of divine may excape them.
We do speak English, but quite a lot of the usage of words such as devine is based on Greek mythology and literary usage.
Asians will base the meaning on Asian historical orgins such as buddhism.
I have had friends that speak English well, but will pronounce 'an apple' as 'A napple'. Even with I corrected them, the said it must be true because every teacher they had pronounced it as 'A napple' and its even pronounced that way.
Jesus is divine even if he never had previous live in heaven. Paris in greek mythology could also be divine because he has been 'touched' by gods.
JWs ofcoures see everything in their own way and their divine language is enforced in the way they think. You have more than one battlefront so dont worry about it two much.
The only secular books outside the WT JWs trust seem to be dictionaries, so you could always use one.
di·vine (di-vin')
adj., -vin·er, -vin·est.
Having the nature of or being a deity.
Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
Superhuman; godlike.
Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto.
Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball.
Heavenly; perfect.
The devil is also divine, since he was created perfect and has been discribed as a god himself.
The JWs sometimes think dictionaries have demons
Ambrosia is Divine,
Maybe chocolate was the food of the goods.