Just a thought...
The 144,000 with the heavenly hope were sealed in 1935 (OK, they don't push the idea openly but it's still the party line).
Everyone else has an earthly hope.
Just because you have a heavenly hope doesn't mean that you can't 'fall away'. Why, look at that 'no good' Ray Franz...
So, someone has to take their place.
Now, does God make someone want a heavenly hope or does he pick someone who wanted to have a heavenly hope but was going to be disappointed.
Who's choice is it...do individuals have free will over what they want.
Who's decision is it to want 'heaven'
by Simon 8 Replies latest jw friends
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Simon
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Martini
Hi Simon,
Brother all I know is "Everyone wants to get to heaven BUT no one wants to die!!!"
Simon things are looking like many more than just 144K are actually heaven bound... according to those 'no good' apostates! Umm I forget though if that includes only 'born again' Christians excluding all 'unborn' Christians I suppose, billions who died before Christ, and all non Christians.
Still care to discuss this issue?
Martini.
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Oops! My apologies Simon, please neglect my cruel humor above it appears misplaced seeing as how your topic is receiving serious consideration.
As far as I'm concerned after learning the flaws in the Watchtower doctrine of a literal 144,000 going to heaven, I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to believe anymore! I suppose my former Catholic belief that all good people go to heaven sounds appealing once again.
So what makes a person 'good' thus worthy of heaven?
Well I'm guessing that on passing away, if those living could agree that you were a 'good' person and perhaps say so openly,then based on the testimony of two or more people I suppose that would qualify you to get to heaven.Hey on this basis most of Jehovah's Witnesses have a pretty good chance! What do you think?
Martini.
Edited by - Martini on 7 November 2000 18:35:44
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AhHah
Simon,
It sounds as if you are asking how the BOrg attempts to reconcile this, right? My understanding of JW doctrine/conjecture on this foolishness is that the individual has no choice in the matter, but that once he/she is called, then their heart is miraculously changed and then he/she wants to go to heaven, even if they didn't want to before!
As I have stated before, however, I don't personally believe that Christ, or any New Testament writers, taught earthly salvation. That does not necessarily mean that there will not be one of course. The irony of it all is that I have no desire to go to heaven when I die. Enlightenment would be nice. If that means that I have to go to "heaven", then so be it.
Maybe we transmigrate to the next planet in the program and are born as a different species! And then we get to visit Earth now and then in spaceships -- but only rural areas!
The way I see it, I have no choice in the matter anyway, so why worry about it? One thing that bothers me about the whole after-life concept is that no one that I know of has ever come back and demonstrated beyond doubt that there is one. Maybe it is just our way of coping with the uncertainty of it all. Maybe we eventually realize that we just didn't have the frame of reference as humans with which to comprehend our next step, and that is why no one bothers to even try to tell us about it. Or maybe, just maybe, this is all there is. Each day of life is a gift as I see it -- so I intend to try to enjoy the blessings that each day offers and not worry about that which I have no control over. Don't worry. Be happy!
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TR
Simon,
There is a lengthy thread from "Jimbo"(anointed) at Witnet under the "sensitive issues" heading dealing with this subject. Unfortunately, Jimbo removed his posts, but the replies are still there. He evidently felt he was stumbling people and being villified.
Tom
Edited by - TR on 7 November 2000 1:58:2
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Simon
It just seems that the idea of 'free will' which seems to be so important in other teachings is suddenly abandoned and it's OK.
Of couse the other thing with the 144,000 is that over 250,000 christians were killed by the Romans...so...most of those mustn't have been genuine if there are still some places to be filled.
Hmmn. -
Pathofthorns
I think the whole annointed thing is going to need some re-working in the near future, particularly things surrounding the 1935 date. As the "last days" seems to perpetuate themselves indefinely, the present doctrine is becoming increasingly untenable.
For one thing, this whole "replacement" idea is becoming rediculous. How many of these old "anointed" really do "go bad"?? The numbers when the should be dropping like flies, are going sideways and increase sometimes.
The doctrine in theory allows the most junior JW to jump to the "front of the line" in that anyone can "claim" to be a member of the FDS. This in theory should give these ones instant authority, since technically it issues from God.
In reality we only put any credence to organizationally issued authority, which in theory issues from the FDS.
This Jimbo from Witnet finds out the hard way that no one believes any young person who claims to be annointed to be genuine. Again, theoretically, this thinking would be dangererous according to present doctrine, because not believing someone as genuine would amount to calling one of Christ's brothers a liar. Considering Christ would judge us on how we treat his brothers, would this not result in an adverse judgement?
Sorry to ramble on. Its just that this whole doctrine is one of the most central teachings, something that sets us apart from all other religions. Its becoming absolutely rediculous with the passage of time.
Path
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waiting
Hey Simon,
Of couse the other thing with the 144,000 is that over 250,000 christians were killed by the Romans...so...most of those mustn't have been genuine if there are still some places to be filled.
I do not know where I read the following writing from Questions from Readers (somewhere on the web). The question was identical to yours and answered (not actual WT quote) thus:
An acknowledgement by the WTBTS that, yes indeed, almost double the amount of Christians were killed in the first century (let alone how many others in the 2nd, 3rd, ....... centuries) as needed to fulfill the number of 144,000. And we have always been taught that the early Christians were all of the anointed because the Greek Scriptures were written for them. But what about all those thousands of Anointed Remnant that keep on going and going and going.....
This was the interesting part, (paraphrased answered):
There is no way of knowing how many of those early proclaimed Christians were actually Christians, or were truly accepted by God as anointed. Even though they died for their faith, we don't know if God accepted this as evidence of their true spirituality. So, therefore, even though the calling was sealed in the early part of this century, replacements sometimes, rarely, are needed.
Imo, I think this is truly odd. We had an old, very dear, sister in our congregation of the anointed. Raised 5 children before coming into the organization. Lived a quiet life as an older adult, had health problems, died in her early 80's at home.
Now, why would she be considered to have a stronger, truer, spirituality than a person who was ripped apart by lions for their faith? Stoned to death? Burned to death? Imprisoned? Tortured? Starved? The list of atrocities that are known to have happened to early Christians is nearly endless.
Yet the WTBTS has the audacity to suggest that these early, killed, Christians, could possible have been untrue in their giving up their lives for their belief in Jesus and God. The WTBTS claims that those who are Anointed Remnant of Jehovah's Witnesses are truer, more proven in their faith, than at least 150,000 (if your figures are correct) of the early Christians who died for their faith.
If anyone has any idea where I can actually find this quote from QFR, please let me know. Thank you.
waiting
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Peter
In my old congregation, we had 4 annointed. It was one of the first congregations established in Massachusetts, so we had a lot of old timers. A couple of new converts got the idea they were of the annointed, too. One changed his mind and drifted out of the organization. He was my best friend for a while, and I believe that he truly believed he was one of them. It wasn't a flash of light, it was just a feeling he got. No one questioned him.
The other one, at least when I was still a JW 4 years ago, still believed he was one of the annointed. He was a bit weird, but otherwise a sincere person. Funny how the mind works.
The one I remember best was a jerk at another congregation. He loved the limelight. He was always putting on a show of piety for the troops. Deep down (well not that deep) he was a class A turkey. One day he decides he has the heavenly call. He tells everyone he no longer has any desire to live forever on earth. Instead heaven is calling him. He canceled his order on the luxury yacht he ordered as just one proof that earth would not be his home for long. Last I knew he was still here. Maybe he should have bought the boat after all.
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TR
Maybe he should have bought the boat after all.
Sounds like he missed the boat! But seriously, all this speculation about the "anointed" shows me that we don't have a clue and neither does the WTS. That the WTS would speculate on the faithfulness of those early martyred Christians, seems like an attempt to shore up their teaching of the "sealing" of the anointed in 1935.
The WTS also expected that the witness work was almost done in 1935. ..."the scriptural evidence and the physical facts strongly indicate that such witness work is now almost done; and when it is done the universal war will begin. Universal war is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to come and that soon, and no power can stop it.. during the FEW REMAINING MONTHS until the breaking of that universal cataclysm the powers that rule the nations of the earth will continue to make treaties and tell the people that by such means they will keep that world peace and bring about prosperity."(caps mine)Universal War Near, by J.F. Rutherford, 1935. chapter 3, pgs. 26, 27.
1935 was supposed to be a pretty darn important year. The sealing of the anointed, then destruction. And since the destruction didn't happen, it doesn't give much credence to the sealing of the anointed.
TR