Infinite number of oranges and boxes does every box contain an orange?

by Qcmbr 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Qcmbr

  Following the fun of the recent evolution v designed designer discussion we knocked some ideas about infinity around in the office starting with the above question.

  Clearly the answer is no but is it? Does infinite then presuppose an infinite universe to contain the infinite oranges and boxes but then how can you have two infinite sets in the same space? Now this is possible if you contain each orange in a box (make the oranges a set within the box - literally!) and there are theoretical infinite sets that contain each other but are clearly an impossible reality (infinite number of prime numbers contained within the infinite number of natural numbers). Does infinity describe the impossible rather than the real? - is there in fact anything 'infinite' that exists outside of abstract concepts (i.e. could you have infinite oranges ? You can have infinite numbers but only because they themselves don't actually exist they are an abstraction of reality)

  Why do I care? Well its because in my theology we are left with the infinite regression of designers. With an infinity of designers shouldn't the universe be filled with designers so much so that there wouldn't be any room for us? Could you have an infinite regression of designers if time is on a loop and each designer is actually finite? Is it possible to have a designer who themselves exist forever with no beginning or end (certainly not according to LDS theology which postulates a beginning.) Is it possible to have the Daoist 'uncarved block' realise its potentiality at some point and spontaneously create intelligence - sounds suspiciously like abiogenesis coupled with the spontaneous generation of the building blocks of matter.

  Sooo - is it in fact possible to have anything within the bounded universe that is in actuality infinite? Do we force God outside the universe (would 'outside' not therefore become bounded by the containment of this universe and one infinite God?) Can you have infinity in the future but not in the past (i.e. have a start but no end?)

  Answers on a postcard.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Infinity gives us a word for referring to things that go on forever (like numbers), but it isn't a number itself. For instance, there's an infinite number of numbers, and an infinite number of even numbers. And an infinite number of numbers evenly divisible by 1,605. Each subset is infinite, and the set is infinite.

  BTW, just do you know, I checked the boxes and it turns out only half contain oranges. ;-)

  Dave
• 

  Qcmbr

  But that's my point - the infinite only has meaning with the meaningless - there is in fact no reality behind infinite numbers since numbers themselves aren't real. We got stuck discussing whether any real 'thing' can be considered infinite within a bounded universe (one with dimensions and laws of physics). We did not get into the discussion of whether any 'thing' actually exists with definite boundaries por only as part of a universal event that could be loosley described as change. Does anything have the permanence to even qualify for infinity?
• 

  Warlock

  ............does every box contain an orange? Impossible to know as long as all the boxes have not been opened. If there is an infinite number of boxes then that question can never be answered, unless one opened box does not contain an orange.

  Warlock
• 

  JamesThomas

  If "infinite" as no limit, then where does the "box" or "orange" begin and/or end? Are they not just a phenomenal manifestation of Infinity?

  In other words: there is only the wholeness of the Wave; and it is merely within mental interpretation that particles (separate and isolated objects) appear to exist.

  There is no box. There is no orange. There is no problem. Of course in the limited mind's abstract world, this answer is unacceptable. Oh well. There is no mind.

  j
• 

  headmath

  My view of the infinite

  The concept of infinity actually solves more paradoxes than it creates.. For instance to say the universe is bounded creates as necessary wall out there, but made out of what - swiss cheese? Then there will be a wall of swiss cheese without limit. The concept of space is to remember that the notion of distance is for the observer alone.

  Without the concept of infinity calculus would not exist.

  Think of the smallest number you can. Mathematicians usually call this number delta x but another may think of an even smaller number and hence the need arises for a way to describe a value (not a number) that is greater than zero but less than delta x . This is usually written as dx or dy or dz or whatever. The ratio dy/dx is a number, the ratio delta x/delta y is an approximation..

  If not for infinity the whole universe could not exist
• 

  JWdaughter

  This is all too deep for me. . .all I can say for sure is that the only thing we were allowed to accept at Christmas time from a relative was the box of mandarin oranges from my grandma. Cookies from my aunts if they didn't look Xmassy The oranges were really good. Can't wait till Xmas, cause my family is addicted to those little orange bits of heaven!
• 

  jimbo

  Hey Dave!!!
  
  I checked the oranges and they all contained boxes. As a matter of fact maybe we are all inside of a large box. Or maybe a small box. Or was it that we all came out of a box?? Or was it orange boxes??
  
  Oh well, you get the point or the orange or the box!!!
  
  jimbo
• 

  Ténébreux

  All right, who's the comedian who put the cauliflower in box number fourteen? Come on, own up...
• 

  VM44

  Given an infinite number of boxes, and an infinite number of oranges, label the boxes starting with the number 1, 2, 3, and so on. The boxes are then said to be countable.

  Place an orange in each odd numbered box, then each of the infinite number of oranges has been assigned a box, and yet there are still an infinite number of boxes (the even numbered boxes) that are empty.

  Except for box 14, which has the cauliflower in it.

  --VM44