church

by Jerry1 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • Jerry1
    Jerry1

    I think i said this already but i dont post enough for y'all to remember that i never been inside a kingdom hall, never started a bible study. just have family in. I made lots of bad arguments in the beginning and so i backed off and tried to learn. From time to time i would like to test ideas

    here so as to not get suprised anymore.

    A group at my church want me to share with them a few thoughts on how to talk to a Witness at the door so today my request of you is to

    critique this small handout i have prepared. I am going to talk for about hour to put some context around it. thanks for any ideas jerry

    21 In 1918, when Jesus Christ inspected those claiming to be his slaves, he found an international group of Christians publishing Bible truths for use both inside the congregation and outside in the preaching work. In 1919 it truly turned out to be as Christ had foretold: "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings." (Matthew 24:46, 47) These true Christians entered into the joy of their Master. Having shown themselves "faithful over a few things," they were appointed by the Master to be "over many things." (Matthew 25:21) The faithful slave and its Governing Body were in place, ready for a widened assignment. How glad we should be that this was so, for loyal Christians are richly benefiting from the devoted work of the faithful slave and its Governing Body!

    This is cut and paste from the Watchtower magazine of 3/15 1990 Page 14 paragraph 21.

    55 In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free." In its chapter 11, entitled "The Count of Time," it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia.

    This is a cut and paste from a Jehovah's Witness book entitled "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Appoached" copyright 1973 page 209 paragraph 55.

    Basic Premises...........Parousia is Greek and means "presence" especially pertaining to royalty at Matthew 24:46, no Greek dictionary or scholar says it means invisible presence. Parousia translated "cometh" in KJV. This is just infomation, if your conversation gets into the nuance of a Greek word you probably need to punt.

    The coming ( parousia / presence ) of the Lord Jesus cannot be seperated from the appointment of the Servant / Slave in Matthew 24:45-47 as they are obviously described as being simultaneous. When the Master arrives the

    the servant is "made ruler" KJV. The Watchtower was saying that Jesus was "present" since 1874 even up until 1943 according to these quotes from their own publications.

    Basic questions..... Is Jesus in Heaven ? Is Heaven a long way off ? Can you see into Heaven ? What are they doing in Heaven today right now? Can your leaders see into Heaven? How did they know they were approved or appointed? When was the Slave ( your leaders ) appointed to feed you with Watchtower magazines,1874, 1918 or when? Who knew of the appointment first? Where was he/she/they? How was it made known, booming voice, still small voice, donkey talking, angel? Warm fuzzy feeling? Was someone ( who when where) reading Matthew 24 and just get a feeling that he was now in charge? The second coming of Jesus, the greatest most monumental event we can imagine, surely your leaders know all these basic details. Surely it was big news in the Watchtower of the day. 1874 1914 1918 or when ( also who, where how ).

    Remember the important point is Jesus' approval. We all make mistakes but Jesus does not. If Jesus approved them OK, but we just need some more information.

    When the Bible says that people worshipped Jesus, that is not the important point, because people will make mistakes and worship in error, see Exodus 32:4 Acts 14:11 or Revelation 19:10. What is important is that Jesus approved of people worshipping Him. This is not a small point. We are not so interested in what the Watchtower leaders were doing at any given time in history. They made mistakes and so do we, but they have made an extraordinary claim concerning Jesus, that they received his approval and appointment to be over His sheep.

    We would need some more information.

  • Fe2O3Girl
    Fe2O3Girl

    Hi Jerry,

    I am afraid that I don't think there are any magic buttons that you can press to get a JW to wake up. I assume that what you want to achieve through your guide to conversing with JWs is a way of steering JWs towards a faith in Christ in the same way that you have.

    Most JWs have very little idea of the history of the WT organisation, and often only a scant grasp of current doctrine. That isn't what is really important to them, so discussing Russell and Rutherford won't change their viewpoint. What makes JWs believe is complex and probably unique to each one - family pressure, the comfort of having everything decided for you, the superiority of knowing something "the world" doesn't see, being in a nice big gang with lots of instant friends.........and all combinations thereof.

    I don't think that anything will get a JW out unless and until they want to get out themselves. And if and when they do leave, it may be to a mainstream Christian background, maybe Wiccan or Buddhist or atheist.

    I do know that most "churchy" types came over as aggressive and intimidating when I was stood on their doorsteps. If anything helped me get out, it was just kindness.

    Sorry that this isn't really what you were looking for. There are plenty of people who can give you the clever arguments. I just don't think that you can disprove or persuade someone who wants to believe.

    All the best with your family. I hope you can help them to leave one day.

    Rachel

  • heathen
    heathen

    The WTBTS claims to have been appointed because of the political nuetral stance they took during WW1 which even had them imprisoned and shut down by the US government over sedition. They were the only christian religion that wasn't trying to morally justify the murder of thousands of people . I find it hard to believe that chaz russell would be picked for FDS tho since he was very much involved with the occult but it seems the belief is that rutherford was selected after the inspection and the WTBTS was let out of prison .

    How they profess to know that christ is ruling invisibly was due to a failed prophesy of the world ending in 1914 but they still believed that the Daniel 4,7 times , could still point to a perousia . In all fairness jesus did say he would have a presence but not a visual one during the end of the world , he gave signs in Mathew 24 .

    The standard answer from j-dubs over the question of having paranormal exsperiences is usuall that they just feel close to God . Personally I think there's more to the whole 144k remnant thing than they admit and are guilty of lying about it if they are the FDS. God does have ways of communicating , no doubt in my mind .

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Their selection by Jesus as his chosen managers over all his earthly affairs is as grandiose and stupid as it is barefaced lie. They obviously haven't done anything to show good responsible management over the spiritual affairs of the JWs.

    And why should anyone believe claims about what goes on in the invisible? They are very convenient for those making them because they can't be verified by others.

  • uninformed
    uninformed

    Fe2O3,

    You are so right.

    Jesus Christ himself could walk into a witness funeral and resurrect a dead person, and if he said or did anything that diminished the WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, (OR PENNSYLVANIA), he would be thrown out as an apostate.

    There is no logic and no reasoning with these people. They have the truth and that's final. Shut up and get the hell out of my face. (is their attitude).

    Jerry, you have a good idea, but nothing works, unfortunately.

    Brant

  • heathen
    heathen
    And why should anyone believe claims about what goes on in the invisible? They are very convenient for those making them because they can't be verified by others.

    LOL . I think when you are talking about spiritual things it is a given that there is an invisible realm that the bible is trying to describe using alot of symbolism . The existance of God himself is not something we can see but alot of people believe it a fact . Jesus himself said , happy are those that have not seen , yet believe . What's interesting about the WTBTS world is the fact that no matter how many things they get wrong they still stick to their story of being approved by God and demonize the people that pointed out their mistake .

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