Do convereted jews believe that Jesus is Jehovah?

by RevFrank 9 Replies latest jw friends

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  RevFrank

  When I debate with Witnesses and it comes to scripture about Jesus making statements that lead to jews thinking Jesus is making statements that He is God..many of Witnesses denie that Jesus was telling the jews that He was God. I make them turn to John 10:33--->>>There the jews argue about it. And when they read it..they try to explain,witnesses, it states something different.

  Witnesses do denie the exsistance of the Trinity. But then again what do the jews believe if they do convert to christianity? I always wondered about that myself until I ran across those who were in, "Jews For Jesus."

  So here's a link to their belief on their doctrinal statement. There it says it all.

  http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/statementoffaith

  PEACE
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  tall penguin

  Fascinating. I always wondered about that. Thanks for sharing.
  tall penguin
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  gumby

  When a dub is out of the Org long enough and continues to embrace christianity, I'd say about 80% or more adopt the trinity or something close to it's meaning.

  Gumby
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  jaffacake

  Interesting. Sorry to go off topic, but I wonder from where folks get the doctrine that the scriptures are verbally inerrant. Not from the Scriptures, which teach us something quite different - those of us who are Christians.
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  yaddayadda

  I think Ray Franz may be right that the tetragrammaton somehow found fulfillment in Christ. I think Christ has a kind of 'functional' equality with the Father and JW's do not put enough emphasis on Christ. But no way could anyone ever convince me that Jesus is Jehovah or is equal to the Father. It makes me puke the way some churches try and teach that Jesus is the NT version of the OT Jehovah.
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  Narkissos

  This definitely proves that anybody can convert to anything. In that case, Protestant fundamentalism with Jewish flavour.
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  jaffacake

  
  yaddayadda

  Your assessment seems as reasonable, and scriptural, as most things I have read. However, I'm not so sure your description of what those other churches teach is completely accurate. I've been Catholic, adventist and other forms of trinitarian in the past - not now, but none ever taught that Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. You seem to describe the JW carricature of a trinitarian, rather than what Trinitarians actually believe.

  One thought often occurs to me, especially in light of the complete focus on Jesus Christ in the Christian scriptures. Isn't everything's and everyone's nature inherited from their parents. If Jesus Christ is truly the son of God, then that surely says he has some Divinity by nature, as well as having human nature? - and all in line with God's will since before creation.
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  yaddayadda

  
  Thanks Jaffacake. U are right that most trinitarian religions do not say that Jehovah is Jesus, but many actually do. It boggles my mind. Having said that, most Christians religions pray to Jesus and worship him to the almost total exclusion of the Father. This flouts Jesus own words that we should render sacred service to the Father only, and his instructions for how we should pray. These religions feel it really makes no difference if Jesus is God, thus they slip easily and frequently between praying to and worshipping the Father and prarying to and worshipping Jesus. Eg, I recently went to a Christian church service (non-JW) where in one of the songs the words Hallelujah were sung and yet in the very next sentence the song praised Jesus as the Lord of all Creation and the Universe? Thus the confusion about who exactly God is and who we should be praying to, singing to, and otherwise worshipping.

  JW's do not deny that Jesus is divine. Theos in John 1:1 means of the divine nature. They acknowledge that he is a divine god, but that he is a lesser God than the Father.

  I do not agree with you that the entire emphasis is on Christ in the Christian Scriptures. If you read Jesus own words in the Gospels you cannot but be struck with how much Jesus talks about the Father and tries to put the emphasis on the Father. The overall testimony of Jesus himself is damning to the notion that he was in any sense God like his heavenly Father is. It is only from Acts onwards where the emphasis shifts 80-90% to Christ and not 'God'.
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  jaffacake

  Thanks for reply Yadda.

  Having said that, most Christians religions pray to Jesus and worship him to the almost total exclusion of the Father. This flouts Jesus own words that we should render sacred service to the Father only, and his instructions for how we should pray.

  I tend to agree with your viewpoint, but I have not personally experienced the practice you describe in my fairly limited involvement with Catholic & several protestant denoms. In the latter, the greatest emphasis was always on the Lord's prayer, or alternatively approaching God through Jesus, for which there is scriptural support. But hey, I've hardly set foot in any churches for more than 20 years.

  JW's do not deny that Jesus is divine. Theos in John 1:1 means of the divine nature. They acknowledge that he is a divine god, but that he is a lesser God than the Father.

  This is where I really struggle with JW teaching...a lesser God!? Having studied the meanings of the Hebrew & Greek words used in many texts, I believe Scriptures refer to the one true God or false Gods. Are there references to more than one true God?

  I do not agree with you that the entire emphasis is on Christ in the Christian Scriptures. If you read Jesus own words in the Gospels you cannot but be struck with how much Jesus talks about the Father and tries to put the emphasis on the Father. The overall testimony of Jesus himself is damning to the notion that he was in any sense God like his heavenly Father is. It is only from Acts onwards where the emphasis shifts 80-90% to Christ and not 'God'.

  A fair point, I chose the wrong word "entire" emphasis. But we should ask whether it was God's will that so much emphasis in the Christian scriptures, outside the gospels, should be placed on His son, and why. I think the message is - the way to one is through experience of he other. I agree the JWs are wrong to emphasise the OT, but some Christians go too far the other way. I do believe however that the Messiah fulfilled and negated at the same time much of the OT.
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  yaddayadda

  Jaffacake, thanks for your thoughts.

  Yes the bible does indeed refer to other Gods, as you surely must be aware of, however, there is only one 'true' God, ie, the almighty creator, the Father. All other 'God's' are inferior to the one true God, the Father. It's quite simple really. So it is ok for Jesus to be called a God, Theos, but it is a stretch to say that this means he is the one true Almighty God, the Ho Theos.

  As far as the huge emphasis on Christ in the NT, that is understandable given that it was in the first century when Jesus appeared and that most of the early disciples were Jewish converts who already knew full well that God was one, their Father, YHWH. They did not need convincing of who God was, just convincing that Jesus was the saviour in whom they needed to put their faith, rather than continued works and obedience to the Mosaic Law. Interestingly, in Acts 17,in his speech to the pagans at the Acropolis, Paul made the main subject of his speech the creator, God, because those listeners needed to know who the one true God was. It was only towards the end of his speech that he mentioned Jesus, a man.

  I agree with you re JW's emphasising the OT far too much and not putting enough emphasis on Christ. JW's rightly render sacred service to the Father, but they have gone too far and have adopted a kind of pseudo Jewish type emphasis on Jehovah. The JW religion revolves around two main things: Jehovah, the Father (commendable) and the Watchtower Society (lamentable). They thus honour their own leadership and organisation more than Jesus.