Help! Need to get some facts on 607BC straight for my BS tomorrow

by bohm 6 Replies latest members private

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  bohm

  Hey!

  I have desided to keep my BS alive and continue to appear interested for a while longer untill things settle down some more. Anyway, we have allmost gone through the 'what does the bible really teach' book and the last time the elder asked me what we should study next, so I choose 607BC because I have some reasons to suspect he *may* have chronological issues.

  In line with Stephen Hassans advice, I think my best options are not to argue with him/throw scripture around, but rather keep a long conversation going where i get him to think about and say out loud what he believe, and research the things he does not know. I also want to raise a minimum of apostate 'red flags'. The plan for the first part of the study we both agreed to get to know of two different interpretation of the 70 years periode, the WTS's and a secular (i have choosen the 'greater babylonian domination' theory because it add up to 70 years). To kickstart it we both agreed to find answers to the following 5 questions regarding the two theories so we both know what we are dealing with: What did they consist of? Who did they apply to? What events charecterize the beginning? What events characterize the end? How are the beginning/end applied to historical events in this theory?

  My hidden agenda is ofcourse to famillerize him with an alternative presentation, and to make him commit to a specific interpretation of the 70 years, since it is my experience that the WTS sometimes want two different answers to these questions to be true at once.

  Back on topic - as i wrote, i have committed to find answers to these questions according to the greater babylonian dominance-theory. I really want these answers to be spot on so i dont have to change a comma during the study (i will write in the two different hypothesis and print them out for reference during the study), but still phrase them so its clear what scripture they refer to. To avoid bible ping-pong i have choosen (on purpose) to leave out direct quotations from the description and references to the bible - I want him to discover for himself when we read Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. in the coming weeks how easily these are supported by scripture. Anyway, here are my 'answers' so far:

  • What did they consist of? Jeremiahs profecy was a CONDITIONAL profesy in TWO parts. The FIRST part was UNCONDITIONAL, namely a periode of servitude to the king of Babylon for 70 years. The SECOND part was CONDITIONAL; God gave Judea the option to repent and mend their ways during the 70 years, but if they did not, jerusalem would be destroyed.
  • Who did it apply to? The profecy of the 70 years applied equally to a number of nations, including Judea.
  • What events define the beginning? That king Nebuchadnezzar should be called against judea and the surrounding nations so they could begin to serve him.
  • What events define the ending?After the 70 years had come to an end, the king of Babylon would be punished.
  • How are the beginning/end applied to history? THE BEGINNING: The Babylonians, under king Nebuchadnezzer, win against the Assyric king Ashur-uballit II in 609BC . This is the last major battle of the Assyrics and mark the end of King Ashur-uballits rule (he dies). After this the Babylonian dominance of the region will not be disputed for a long time. THE END: In the fall of Babylon in 589BC, the Babylonian emprire was divided between the Medes and the Persians and theking of babylon, Belshazzar, was killed. See Daniel and 'the writing on the wall'.

  So please people! Its time to nitpick! do your worst, i want all possible errors or poor phrases weeded out before i have to commit to this, since i know he will be over me like lice on a dog if i have to backtrack! And if some of it can be phrased stronger - please be my guest!

  Ps. I know this is not the best place to post this, but i want to keep it for 'registered members only' due to general lingering paranoia.

  pps. I am gratefull to a number of people who have done all the hard work before me, but i want to mention Doug Mason in particular and his excelent study avaliable here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/186301/1/New-study-on-the-Babylonian-Exile-and-without-chronologies, which i feel resieved way to little attention.
• 

  Slayerbard

  on thing I did discover is if you look the year jersulem's temple was distroyed and the year it was rebuilt (the dates history and the WT agree upon suprisingly) it is a about a 70 year span.. 71 years to be exact so depending upone when it all happened could very well have been with in the 70 years. Which would show desolation occuring temple being distoryed..and the rebuilt ending the desolation time for them. also point out that even though they were "free" during those 70 years.. the rebuilding work was being FUNDED by Cyrus who was sending supplies, and helping protect them. you can read the scripture showing that. Soo they really weren't free and still dependant upon them til that temple was rebuilt and they were on there own. I'd appreciate what you have to say. I'm working up on this to talk to my family about this. I know they don't understand it fully, and since the WHOLE religion is founded upon 2 legs.. 607 and 1914 I figure I should hit there. Good luck to you man (feels good to say that!)
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  bohm

  Thanks Slayerbard. I remember reading (rather briefly) about what you describe - to tell you the truth i think its very likely that most of these interpretations has been muddled together during the centuries so there are no 'one size fits it all' 70 years prophesy, especially in the books which was written a long time after the fact.
  I picked the interpretation i describe because its easy and dosnt require introducing concepts like 'two stories may have gotten mixed up in translation' - I think he will definately mark any argument that follows that line of thought void without looking into it. Additionally, i feel it is much more likely than the society version, at least when you look at the book of jeremiah.

  Ill report back on my experiences later - i think i will do a writeup of my whole BS study experience! Good luck on your family to - have you read about psychology (Hassans books, freeminds, etc.) so you can phrase your questions for maximal impact? Talking to relatives is a real science..

  Depending on what you have tried to talk with your family about, i feel evolution and the blood question are much *softer* issues for the WTS - with evolution i mean all their misquotes, the lies and the complete lack of knowledge they have allowed into print. Just saying! :-)
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  Farkel

  Messing around with when the 70 years began or ended is pointless. It is so easy to determine when Jerusalem was destroyed that even a child can understand it. What happened after that date is moot, since the whole WT chronology hangs on that date. Therefore, the 70 years exercise is a red herring. That's why the WT prefers it: it confuses everyone about everything and can be argued many ways.

  There are dozens of articles on this site on how using the Bible and only two quotes from WTS publications ("Babylong the Great Has Fallen" and "Aid to Bible Understanding") 607 is wrong and 587-586 is right. I even wrote one myself. You don't even need to bring in the 15,000 or so secular documents from that period that also point to 587/586 as the date of Jerusalem's destruction. That approach and that argument is fool proof because it uses the WT Society's OWN publications and their OWN Bible to prove it!

  Farkel
• 

  wobble

  Just a side point, even if 607 BCE were correct for the destruction of Jerusalem, so what ?

  Nothing in Daniel gives any reason to believe that the prophecy of seven times is anything but what it says, seven times of madness for the king, the prophecy fulfilled in the same chapter, job done, finished.

  Anything added to that is just laughable, and extra-biblical, nonsense.

  SO , 1914 was just a year in history when the great war started, it is not mentioned or hinted at in scripture unless you have been on the magic mushrooms.

  So don't get too hung up on 607.

  Love

  Wobble
• 

  bohm

  FARKEL, WOBBLE: I am not going to say this is the best idea, or even very good perhaps. A while ago i asked him what could falsify his beliefs with regard to jehovahs witnesses. He answered 'if they taught something that was not in the bible'. I have worked with him since to make him commit to the idea that the selection in 1918/19 is abselutely essential in terms of making a rational descision with regard to JW, and one where you has to make an investigation with regard to how close they stick to the bible.
  So thats why i choose the biblical side of the 607BC discussion as the focal point. I hope he has to must invested interlectually to dodge it the usual ways (we believe the bible over secular sources, the FDS may provide a better understanding later, etc.), and its hard to pull the apostate card when all i want to do is read the bible.

  I doubt it will give any results, but i hope knowing the 'alternative' explanation will take the joy out of reading Jeremiah chapters 25+ :-).
• 

  Terry

  What source material was Russell using when he came up with 606 BC?

  What caused him to shift one year? (He didn't know there was no year zero!)

  What has Jesus actually been DOING for the last 96 years???

  As a practical matter, if Jesus DID return (he's invisible, you see) and start to direct the preaching activity and the Watchtower doctrine machine, how is it they are so often dead wrong?

  Jesus has screwed up!

  Or....

  it is all a False Prophecy being defended even in the face of proof to the contrary.

  (What was the whole "End of 6,000 years of human existence all about anyway?")

  False statements just keep fading......fading..........fading.....

  And yet, they keep on teaching it and not learning the lesson.