Answer to DTRT
Part 2
Again, some words of explanation and a warning: This is the second of four parts answering DTRT's questions that were attaching to the bottom of "Satan's Achilles' Heel" aka "The little piss-ant panty-waist 'god' " (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/216795/1/Satan-The-little-piss-ant-panty-waist-god ). If you haven't read that first part, you may need to go back and review it in order to have some continuity.
The first of the answer's four parts is located here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/217242/1/Answer-to-DTRT-Part-1
As to the warning: As mentioned before, some people find this subject disturbing, because we are tromping all over forbidden territory. This especially applies to Parts 2 through 4.
Also to my surprise later, I forgot to needle the Totchwower spies in Part 1. I guess that's a sign of old age, eh, what? LOL! They are so craven whenever the subject of Satan and the demons come up, that they've been frantically digging their rabbit hole deeper so they can hide better. In fact, I'm strongly advising them to either quit digging or buy themselves some asbestos pants, 'cause they must be getting fairly close to hell by this time.
Once again I will make this special request of them: Please, please, please! Announce to the world that the only way I could write the following words is by Satan helping me! (Matt. 12:24-27) I would consider it a great honor! Har, har!!
Hi, DTRT!
Part 1 ended with these words:
"So it appears that this is one of the few times that most of the churches of Christendom are correct. It appears that the angels (and the demons before the flood) had the technical knowledge to manufacture a body and inhabit it. Most of the pagan faiths have a similar belief."
That's all well and good, but it's not hard to find instances when everybody believed something that was false. Therefore, the wise thing to do is to come at it from different angles to see if the same conclusion is reached. So here are a couple more angles, involving both the technology that would be needed for them to manufacture such bodies, and the likelihood of them having such knowledge.
MATING WITH HUMANS? HOW?
Let's appeal to your own training, DTRT. You are an engineer and much more. You use technical knowledge every day. You are constantly being asked to go and build something, somewhere. When you are given such an assignment, isn't the FIRST order of business that of making sure you have the knowledge and skills to do the job?
Now put yourself in the position of the overseeing angel when he rebelled and became Satan., as this section of The Outline describes:
VI - If Jehovah is the creator, why would he create such things as disease organisms, parasites, and other vermin that apparently have no ecological function other than to make the rest of creation miserable?
Section 1: Is there no other possibility? Consider this:
A. In the scenario above, (Described in "The little piss-ant panty-waist 'god'.) Satan would be using the earth for recreation and it would be under his control entirely. He could do what he wanted. So what would he want?
1. Isaiah 14:12-14 states that Satan wanted to become like God. If so, what is God like?
2. Most common description is "Creator"
B. What was Satan's pre-fall position?
1. He was already the overseer and/or caretaker of the earth and everything on it, which was an extremely high position.
2. According to scripture, he was glorious and had a great deal of authority on top of that.
3. There wasn't much left for him to want - except to create, and to be worshipped for it.
C. Would he have the technological knowledge to create?
1. Compare it to our experience as humans. If we hired a man to supervise a construction project, he would need knowledge of all phases of construction. Likewise, if we are designing a new form of communication, any man hired to oversee it would need a thorough knowledge of electronics.
2. Satan was the appointed overseer of the earth before his fall. Therefore, he should have an excellent knowledge of how it was done.
3. The main thing distinguishing this planet from all others (as far as we know) is the myriad life forms upon it. ALL of those life forms are formed using DNA.
4. Ergo: It is reasonable to think that Satan would have a working knowledge of DNA
Status: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 2: The implications of such a scenario:
A. His opportunity:
1. He would now have the skill to manipulate DNA
2. He also has the opportunity and location to do so.
3. Due to his nefarious actions, he would feel he could do anything he wanted with impunity.
B. Broader implications
1. The "higher critics" have been scoffing at the Biblical account of Genesis for 100's of years now.
2. The above scenario not only brings such things into the realm of possibility, but even of probability, when considering that these fallen angels were using the earth as a recreational resource.
3. Psychologically speaking, for someone with that skill and opportunity, it would be surprising if they didn't play with DNA.
Status: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 3: Specific scenarios:
A. The fallen angels materializing bodies and having children with the "daughters of men".
1. The fallen angels, with their knowledge of DNA, should be able to create a body and energize it using their own life force, then discard it when desired, much like an old suit of clothes..
2. Manipulating the genes in an embryo would be a simple process, considering that we do that now (usually with disastrous results) using drugs. With their knowledge they could "tweak" those genes to get whatever results they wanted, height, strength, whatever. We humans are trying to do that now.
3. This brings the "mighty men of old" (the giants or Nephilim) into the realm of possibility, if not probability.
4. These modified hybrids would be show pieces, and relatively few would be made. To find an archeological record of one would be fortunate indeed.
5. These "show pieces" could then be used in much the same manner that we today use "virtual people" in video games.
B. It would be a relatively simple thing (man nearly has the capability now) to take the DNA for a narwhale tusk and put it in a horse, thereby creating a unicorn. Or replacing the front half of a goat with the trunk and body of a man, thereby creating a satyr. Or . . . etc., etc.
1. Maybe the ancient pagan accounts aren't as silly as they sound.
2. By exercising such power and influence the fallen angels would have the humans of that day cowed and in awe. How easily our ancestors could be manipulated using such powers and spectacles!
3. More importantly, such manipulation would be absolutely necessary in order to distract mankind from knowing about and/or attempting to provide the answer to the question Satan raised in Eden, or for that matter, even knowing that there was a question for them to answer.
4. Otherwise, Satan dies.
Status: Written. Needs enlarged.
Section 4: One more scenario:
A. Would Satan have been satisfied to simply modify or rearrange the DNA of the existing creations? Or would his ego demand that he create entirely new ones?
1. If he created new ones, he would have a problem. The DNA itself would be doable, but how would he activate it? Without activation, it would simply sit there like a light bulb with no electricity running through it.
2. He would need to find some way to activate it, somewhere to find the activation force, and the method used would be immaterial.
B. The curious passage at Lev. 17:11 about the life force being in the blood.
1. In the event that this is literal and blood is where the life force of an organism resides and is then distributed to the rest of the body, this could be a source Satan could use.
2. If so, and he used it, then we could expect that there would be some organisms that could not reproduce without stealing blood (and part of the accompanying life force) from something else. Are there?
C. Yes. Mosquitoes, fleas, lice, bedbugs, and leaches are only a few.
1. Note that nearly all organisms, except those that need an infusion of blood to reproduce, have an obvious nitch or purpose in the environment.
2. However, the only identifiable "purpose" of the blood-suckers is to make the rest of creation miserable.
3. Ergo: They don't "fit" in the environment like everything else does. They have all the appearances of something foreign that has been inserted into a finely tuned arrangement.
D. Also, most disease organisms live in the blood.
1. To spread, those who cannot spread through the air need a vector of some sort.
2. Note the ideal suitability of the blood suckers for that purpose, even while having no other known purpose for existing.
E. We now have a complete system living off another, while providing no benefit to anyone. The two systems are not compatible, and will kill the other if given the chance.
F. Again, note the contrast: Jehovah creates things to be useful and cares for his creations, but Satan feels no compunction about destroying other creations in order to guarantee the continued existence of his own inventions - ones that have no practical purpose other than fanning his ego. This goes back to the personalities involved.
The above scenario is one that is entirely possible within the Biblical record. To say that Jehovah created every physical thing may not be accurate. Just as he did not create Satan in the form that he is, but rather Satan made himself what he is, so also Jehovah would not be responsible for the things Satan made. Satan has to foot that responsibility himself.
(End of this section of the outline.)
DTRT, one should quite happily admit that the above suggested solutions strain credibility - and then some. However, there are three questions that we all need to consider:
- Where are the flaws, technically and logically speaking?
- Inasmuch as we are dealing with beings who have far more intelligence than we do, shouldn't we EXPECT any discoveries to be of an incredulous nature?
- Dang! This is fun, ain't it? LOL!
ARE SATAN AND HIS BUDDIES DEMONS?
No, we are unaware of any place where the actual words "Satan and his buddies are demons" (or similar) are used in the Bible. However, there are other passages where it is very difficult to come to any other conclusion. One is Matthew 12:24-27:
"At hearing this, the Pharisees said: 'This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.'
"Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: 'Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then will his kingdom stand? Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub, by means of whom do your sons expel them? . . ."
Note that approximately the same words are used in Mark 3:22-26 and Luke 11:15-20, and other passages tend to strengthen it. It appears that Satan and Beelzebub are one and the same and Beelzebub is one name for Satan that is accepted in many cultures.
To approach it from a different angle, though, the psychology of the situation is just as big a witness. You've undoubtedly met enough crooks in your life to recognize the criminal profile. They will put on a façade of decency, consideration, and fellow feeling - until they have you trusting them. Only then will their true nature come out, and you get shafted.
Meanwhile they will still do everything possible to maintain the façade for everyone else and make it look like you brought the problems upon yourself. In this manner they can escape retribution for their criminal acts. It would stand to reason that we would find this in Satan's case too.
If he can't convince us that he doesn't exist and is nothing but some figment of a superstitious imagination, then he will want to glorify himself beyond what he actually deserves. He will also soften his image to as many as he can and/or convince them that he is scary and that it's not healthy to trifle with him. Is this the case with Satan? Yes. Here are some examples:
"He doesn't exist:" The scientific community - the ones most likely to use critical and objective thinking - are reduced to being non-factors due to their thinking that they are "above superstition." They won't examine the subject at all.
"Glorifying himself:" In the doctrine of hell-fire, it is taught that Satan is the ruler of Hell, even though the Bible doesn't back that. If he is the ruler of Hell and Jehovah is the ruler of Heaven, that puts them on an equal footing and it legitimizes his existence. According to him, they are in cahoots, and divvy up the people of the world between them. According to his propaganda, then, he is like, or equal to God. (Read Isaiah 14:12-14 again.) Many other methods are used to the same end.
"Softening his image yet instilling fear at the same time:" Ever note how all things "demonic" are trivialized and "cutzied" up? Ghosts, goblins, witches, etc., etc. are just make-believe fun. Scary movies are viewed as normal and healthy entertainment. Halloween is celebrated and treated as harmless fun, even while ignoring the fact that part of the reason for its existence is to appease the "dark forces". These activities are held forth as harmless fun, but they instill the very superstition and yes, fear, that is laughed at as being unnecessary. By starting this indoctrination when we are children, few of us outgrow that gut-level sense of unease and fear, and fewer still will challenge Satan by bucking the superstitions that are left behind as psychological residue.
By using this model of the criminal mind when examining the evidence presented to us about Satan, his various "faces" or personalities start to make sense. That he tries to make himself look benevolent at times agrees with scripture. "And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14) If this is the case, we can expect that there will be confusion as to who (and what) he is.
Plus we can compare it to the real world. How many times have we heard of some hideous crime like the one in California where an idiot kept a young girl as a sex slave for 18 years, and when it finally came out all the neighbors were shocked. "But he was such a nice guy! I can't believe it!" "But the man I know couldn't possibly do that! You must have him confused with someone else!" We can expect Satan to be just as two-faced, and that will cause confusion over his identity.
That, in turn, complicates our job of making a knowledgeable choice as to whom we prefer, Jehovah or Satan.
Probably the main thing influencing this course of study, though, is that this one holds forth hope, while all other assumptions never get us off square one. The death of the human race is the common eventuality in all the rest of them.
"SONS OF GOD" CAN REFER TO BOTH ANGELS AND MANKIND
Compare Genesis 6:2, 3 with Luke 3:38 to see what this means. The easiest way to reconcile it is to remember that the word "father", roughly translated, means "life giver". In that sense, Jehovah would be the "father" of everything alive, spiritual and physical.
You know, that stimulates a thought. If Jehovah is the "Life Giver" and one of his "sons" shows disrespect for the life he received as a free gift, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the gift should be returned? In addition, it would not be incumbent upon Jehovah to maintain that life any more than it would be incumbent upon you to maintain a Cadillac you gave someone as a gift, especially when they used it to skid logs or plow fields. They would still own the Cadillac, for you gave it to them. However, they would need to maintain and fuel it themselves.
This tends to reinforce the earlier conclusion that Satan and his demons had their "food supply" cut off. They would have to provide their own, for if Jehovah continued to provide the "fuel" necessary to continue their nefarious conduct, then he becomes an accomplice.
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A PERSONAL OBSERVATION
Judy feels that I may be placing myself (and others) in danger here, for if I am slandering Satan, he may wish to retaliate. I'm not concerned about myself.
If he is innocent, an innocent person wishes to clear his name. Killing me would merely reinforce the impression that I'm leaving, which would make such an action counterproductive. (Think about how Obama's refusal to release his birth certificate creates doubt as to his legitimacy as a presidential candidate.)
If he is guilty, he would indeed be pissed off due to my blowing his cover. However, he still has a problem. All I'm doing is providing my part of the answer that our heavenly father is asking from all of us in Proverbs 27:11; "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." Witness tampering is a very poor idea, for that in itself will destroy his case.
But she is right about it calling attention to others who would associate themselves with this activity. While I feel that this needs to be done, and will continue trying with all I have to try with, I cannot ask anyone else to do what I am doing, nor do I feel that it is necessary.
Each of us has different talents. I'm a bull-headed cuss who will confront whatever I feel needs confronting. That is useful, sometimes. At other times a softer touch is more productive. Therefore the only policy I feel is appropriate is that each individual should react (or not react) as their own heart tells them to, and that reaction should be one that leaves them with a free conscience.
In other words, I would be completely out of place to be telling people "You have to do this (or that)." Their hearts will tell them what they need to do and if they decide to do it, then it must be completely voluntary for it to have any value.
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There are a couple of additional things that should be covered, but we'd better save those for Part 3. Your question: "Are any of the Demon Possessed people that are referenced in the Bible, well adjusted people without problems?" is especially interesting.
Your observations as to whether or not our answer makes any sense would be greatly appreciated.
'Til then,
Tom