A Lie, Insight Book or Webster's Dictionary?

by waiting 6 Replies latest jw friends

  • waiting
    waiting

    INSIGHT BOOK, page 244-245: "LIE. The opposite of truth. Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person. A lie need not always be verbal. It can also be expressed in action, that is, a person may be living a lie. ...."

    My first question. Can we lie to a person if we do not feel he is entitled to the truth? Obviously we would have an intent to deceive - or we would tell him the truth. Who determines who is entitled to a true statement? What if we didn't understand the situation or ramifications - would it still be a lie, or not a lie, if we misunderstood? What about the person we lie to? Do they have a choice and would they have the right to be angry when they found out that we lied to them? If we told them that we felt that they were not entitled to a true statement, could they make a case that we lied?

    The Insight book continues with many examples of many types of lying, ....."While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open. (Mt. 7:6) That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm......Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, and Elisha in misdirecting or in withholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light." .....

    My second question. Who decides who is entitled to truthful information? Does our conscience lead us to ascertain if another person is entitled to truthful information? What if our conscience is wrong, or we have been given wrong information, are we then guilty of lying?

    If we lied in Court, and get caught, could we use this Insight information to back us up? If we lied anywhere, could we use this information to say that is what we're taught - and we didn't feel that they were entitled to a true statement of truthful information, so we didn't maliciously lie.

    The Insight book quotes Jesus Christ "Do not give what is holy to dogs,...... That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm."

    My third question. Is it lying to refrain from "giving full information or direct answers?"
    Are we to use Jesus Christ as our example in lying?

    Insight book, "Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab,and Elisha in misdirecting or in whthholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light ...."

    My fourth question. Can we only lie to nonworshipers of Jehovah and it be alright? Can we lie to our brothers because we perceive they are not "entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive....." Again, who decides?

    WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY: "lie, verb, 1. to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive. 2. to create a false or misleading impression. to affect by telling lies.

    lie, noun, 1a. an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive. b. an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker. 2. something that misleads or deceives. 3. a charge of lying."

    According to the dictionary, it does not matter whether the person is "entitled to know the truth." Nor does it matter whether we are "under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it."

    According to the dictionary, there are different forms of lying, but they are all lying - and says nothing about an untrue statement not being a lie if we feel the other person is not entitled to a true statement.

    We can accomodate these two similar, yet different definitions of a lie. Yes, a lie is the telling of an untruth (Insight and Webster).

    But then, if the person is not entitled to the truth and we wish to deceive them (thus the reason for the lie), it's not wrong to lie. And Jesus is our example. (Insight book only)

    We being Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, are free to use that example. But who determines who is entitled to know the truth? In my humble opinion, if a person chooses, he/she could determine just about anybody in any situation to not be entitled to know the truth.

    I'm so glad my teenagers are grown up and never reasoned on the Insight definition.

  • Seven
    Seven

    My thoughts and not an answer to any specific question: An excuse or justification for a lie cannot be found if I have made faith in Jehovah God and obedience to his will the major rule of my life. Aren't we instructed not to do evil to derive good? Lying comes from the heartMt 15-18. We are not to lie to one another since we have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of him who created him...Col 3-9. Scripture may be twisted to suit many agendas-even my own. I could never honestly see how Mt 7:6
    was used to justify the withholding of information-I don't think that's what Jesus meant
    at all-maybe I just not entitled to know.
    7

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey 7,

    I have always heard Mathew 7:6 applied to the preaching work. Such as, don't waste time or arguing with people who do not want to listen to you. Because the pearls are the biblical truths.
    These truths are too valuable to be trampled on by swine. Well, ok, trampled on by women, too.

    I have never, before now, heard it as a justification for lying. Brave New World.

    Edited by - waiting on 13 June 2000 20:0:32

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Now, now ladies calm down. The next thing you'll be saying is that the WTS 'encyclopedia' is re-defining words again as justification for a few 'witheld' facts from its members!
    Was that what Abraham was doing when he made his wife say that she was his sister? I thought he was lying cause he was scared witless! And when Rehab lied about the two spies and thereby became a traitor to her city...she was not really lying, just witholding information.
    Ah well, if ever I'm cornered in a lie, I now have the information to get out of it!

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey, Frenchy,

    Today, in our store - believe it or not - a young brother brought up this type of a lie, and that it was talked about in a recent Watchtower article. I said I had looked it up in the Insight book, but he said he didn't know about that - but the Watchtower said the same thing.

    We, as Christians, could lie, if we felt that those we were lying to were not entitled to a true statement. Naturally, I jumped in for retort! (we've tangled before) Another brother was there also and he was trying to make light of the situation. The young brother kept saying that, "well......if you're in Russia" I asked him if the Watchtower qualified their lying statement to only those times of "Theocratic Warfare?" He said no. I asked did they qualify their lying definition at all. He said no. I asked him then why was he qualifying what the Society had stated. (he doesn't like to argue with me....I don't know why....the piglet.) He said he didn't want to talk about it anymore.

    The Society has given, and apparently regiven, their unqualified definition on lying - and it ain't Webster's. More PR so that they can justify what they're submitting to foreign governments (and JW's) about blood, disfellowshipping, disociating, etc. Theocratic Warefare........

    Edited by - waiting on 14 June 2000 19:6:24

  • gumby
    gumby
    ....."While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.

    Next time the elders want specifics during your committee meeting about your sexual misconduct.....just lie....cuz it's none of their damn buisness concerning "specifics".

    Gumby

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I have told my father outrightly that I apply the standards of the Insight book regarding "Lie" when speaking with him, that I use the same standard he uses.

    He said, "So you are saying we [the elders] can't believe what you say?"

    I said, "Well, I don't mind if you believe me. I don't mind at all."

    AuldSoul

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