Re: Mad Apostate's form letter

by Mulan 17 Replies latest jw friends

Mulan

In regards to the following letter, that Mad Apostate posted last week:
*************************************
To Whom It May Concern:
Your harassing inquiries into our personal affairs are not welcomed, and any further attempts at such will result in legal action against the individual harassers, the --City--, --State-- Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, Inc., and all associated Watchower legal entities.
To the best of our recollection, we have not participated in Field Service in approximately __ months, have attended no Meetings in approximately __ months, nor have we participated in any other activities which would specifically identify us as Jehovah's Witnesses during the same time period.
Based on these, and other facts, it is our position that the Watchtower organization has no legal right to inquire into our personal affairs, nor does it have the legal right to take any organizational action which would become public knowledge.
Nothing communicated previously, nor in this letter, nor any personal actions, are intended to be, nor should be construed as constituting what the Watchtower organization labels as "Disassociation".
If any public announcement is made by the Watchtower organization that we have chosen to "Disassociate" ourselves, or that we have been "Disfellowshipped", then we will proceed with legal action against the individual Elders, the --City--, --State-- Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, Inc., and all associated Watchtower legal entities.
Hereafter, no agent or other representative of the Watchtower organization has permission to enter onto our residential property, nor communicate with us via telephone or email. Trespassers will be subject to criminal prosecution and civil liability.
If further communication is deemed necessary, please limit such to written letter transmitted via mail service. Such communication is not solicited, and we reserve the right to proceed with legal action if such communication violates our legal rights.
Respectfully,
________________________________
Joe Blow
________________________________
Jolene Blow
***************************************
My niece took this letter to her attorney, and he made the following suggestions:
1. Where your address is referred to, put your actual address, and work address, if applicable. Also the address of the congregation, when referenced.
2. Name all elders in the congregation, at the appropriate place.
3. Refer to previous visits by elders, very specifically: dates, names, etc.
4. In the paragraph about "if an announcement is made about disassociation or disfellowshipping": Say this: ".........announcement, or written statment is circulated, it will be considered a slanderous statement, a defamation of my character, meant to alienate me from my family, children, and friends.
5. Send the letter by registered mail, AND regular mail to any elder.
He said you CAN sue them if they proceed.
Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
"No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers
Englishman

Nice one, Marilyn.
So how do we compose a letter demanding that our DF'ing is rescinded?
Ahhhh!
Englishman.
Bring on the dancing girls!
MadApostate

Mulan:
Please allow me to comment on the comments.
1. Where your address is referred to, put your actual address, and work address, if applicable. Also the address of the congregation, when referenced.
I see no reason to include the address of the cong in the "body" of the letter. I included the Cong Address in the letter's "heading", which you did not include in this excerpt.
His suggestion to specifically list your residential address (I assume he refers to the "trespass" paragraph) is not a good one in my opinion, since you might move at a later time. I stayed "generic" for a reason.
His suggestion to specifically list any "applicable" "work address" is flat out wrong, unless of course you are self-employed. You can't forbid someone to enter your employer's property. He misses the purpose of this paragraph, which is to deter the elders from visiting, callng, or emailing. Any attempt to communicate off-premises is detered generally in the opening paragraph.
2. Name all elders in the congregation, at the appropriate place.
While there is nothing wrong with doing so, my general phrase "individual harassers" was, again, intentionally selected, because it covers not only the lders, but also the MSs, as well as their wives, or any other busybodies in the cong.
3. Refer to previous visits by elders, very specifically: dates, names, etc.
Again, I prefer to stay "general", versus "specific", in order to keep them guessing about what's going on in your thoughts.
4. In the paragraph about "if an announcement is made about disassociation or disfellowshipping": Say this: ".........announcement, or written statment is circulated, it will be considered a slanderous statement, a defamation of my character, meant to alienate me from my family, children, and friends.
Again, being "specific" by identifying the legal theory(ies) which my "general" threat of "legal action" encompasses serves no purpose but to allow them to dispute (even if only to themselves) that an announcement constitutes "slander". (IT DOESN'T) Stay GENERAL, and keep them guessing what type of legal theories might apply.

5. Send the letter by registered mail, AND regular mail to any elder.
I included the registered mail recc in my opening comments, which were not included here.
With regard to his comment that "you can sue" if they proceed, sure you can, just don't hope to win!!!
Mulan

I merely posted what my niece's attorney said. I do not claim to be an attorney, nor am I a legal expert.
I also, know from the experience of another relative, and from my husband who is a former elder, that when you threaten lawsuit, they drop their action against you.
Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
"No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers
mustang

I couldn't find the post 'from last week', so I will post this here. The following is a 'DA letter' posted by DocBob on the old H2O. I have talked to DocBob and he has agreed that I could re-post this occasionally.
What is great about this approach is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO JUMP ON THE BAND-WAGON AND DO WHAT WTS SAYS!!!!
(Do not confuse this with another DA letter attributed to DocBob that seems to have actually leaned towards DA'ing; I don't understand the circumstances behind that.)
As far as Legalese & legalities are concerned, there is more than one possible strategy and approach, as illustrated by DocBob, MadApostate and Mulan's comments.
Mustang
start quote
*DA Letter w/Legalese
Posted by Doc Bob [docbob] on September 26, 2000 at 18:42:27
{Ya22knR/iw4GgUr52RakFCBZCmlcxk}:
In Reply to: DA Letter w/Legalese posted by hypatia on September 25, 2000 at 18:10:20:
Hi Hypatia,
I wrote most of the body of this a few years ago thinking it might come in handy someday. I actually sent it to my local body of elders after they invited me to meet with them to face charges of apostacy last December. I have not heard from then since. I have not heard that any announcements have been made regarding me.
Bob
======================================
I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or from Jehovah’s Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons. First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serv-ing any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P________ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in pub-lications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.
The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multi-national, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations. Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.
1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.
2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.
3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Govern-ing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.
5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.
6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or or-ganization of which I am not a member.
7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.
8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibili-ties involved in the judicial process.
9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.
10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :
12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jeho-vah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.
16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of
Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.
18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.
19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, spe-cifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jeho-vah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corpora-tions, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Con-gregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also understand that it is necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching;
to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah’s Witnesses to treat me dif-ferently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah’s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.
25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privi-lege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, writ-ten or oral, public or private.
I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding. I respectfully await your writ-ten response.
Follow Ups:
**DA Letter w/Legalese AF 22:19:05 9/26/0 (0)
end quote
anewperson

Mad's original form & Mulan's attorney's comments can both stand. Simply include an accompanying attachment saying something like this:
Addendum To The Foregoing:
Be it known by this written presentation that the preceding attachment in reference to the elders related at the time when it was first fashioned in specific to the following elders:
of the following congregation:
and concern is hereby express also in regard to but necessarily limited to incidents related as following and on the precise or most approximate date shown:
My signature and today's date:
Dated signature of first witness:
Dated signature of second witness:
Also on that first page note, say at the bottom, that there is an accompanying addendum offering clarification as to names, dates and past incidents
Saying "when it was first fashioned" clarifies that of course since that date the congregations' elders may have changed etc.
Compliments to Mad for offering the document to begin with, and to Mulan for publicising it better.
Honesty

A lot of great advice for you from our real friends.
EvilForce

OMG a thread from the dead.
NeonMadman

A thread from the dead, indeed, but possibly one that explains the change in the new OD book's wording of announcements of disfellowshipping or disassociation. What better way to skirt a threat such as:
If any public announcement is made by the Watchtower organization that we have chosen to "Disassociate" ourselves, or that we have been "Disfellowshipped", then we will proceed with legal action against the individual Elders
than by simply announcing that the person is "no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Such a public statement can easily be defended in any court action, since it can be demonstrated that the individual was indeed once one of Jehovah's Witnesses (publishers record cards, testimony of those in the congregation that the person was an active member, record of baptism, etc.). And the letter makes it clear that the person in definitely now not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. So they can hardly be sued for announcing that fact to the congregation. Since that announcement is really code for "start shunning this person," it would seem they have made it much harder for letters such as are suggested in this thread to have any effect.
DannyHaszard

Mulan I love this thread
Never ever be intimidated by Watchtower flunky legal bimbos,they are scared s**tless of court action.
Because they know they can't fool a worldly jury of 12 normal folks.
Remember the Jury pool are taken from the tainted field service 'territory' who already know that Jehovah's Witnesses s**k.
WHO is Phillip Brumley?

Re: Mad Apostate's form letter

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