Reflections

by Frenchy 92 Replies latest jw friends

Frenchy

I’m starting a new thread because it’s time I left the Bergman discussion.
I would like to address some comments made by AhHah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.
Even then, I wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association. On the other hand, who else (other than an ex-JW) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be). Ironically, it is probably the well-read ex-JWs who are past the anger, who are in the best position to critically evaluate his work and conclusions -- and they are probably the least in need of it. C'est la vie.

I think there are very important truths stated here by AhHah. Disturbing questions and feelings surfaced when I read this. Is the WTS, the Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? It would depend on whom you ask. Is it an association that controls the lives of its members. Most definitely. However, would that not be the case if it truly was what it claims to be? Would that not be its very nature, to differentiate its members from the ‘world’? Is TRUTH not unique? Once found and accepted should it not be defended against all lies and misrepresentations?
What is it about ex-JW’s that make them so angry? I’ve seen ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, and even one ex-Presbyterian. None of them had the anger that I see among ex-JW’s. What is the motivation of all this anger? Is it as is stated above, to “document the potential harm of this religion”? Is that truly the concern of those who have left? Why is it that even once the admission is made that the organization is false to its claims that dissidents continue to lash out at it? Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false? Have we not many times whether in business or personal relationships experienced disappointment in someone or some institution? Were we not able to just walk away without making a crusade of a life-long war against that person or organization? Why do we feel so compelled to attack what was once our life’s pursuit?
Are we totally convinced that it was indeed a deception? I am haunted by Shakespeare’s words: “Methinks he doth protest too much.” Who are we trying to convince? Others or ourselves?
I once got involved with Amway. (Hey, I never said I was smart!) It took me several weeks to realize what was going on (Hey, I never said I was quick!). I walked away from it and to tell you the truth I never think about it unless someone mentions the name or as in this case. I am not angry at Amway for being the scam that it is. I simply leave it for what it is. What is it about the JW’s that makes it so difficult to simply leave? I know the usual responses about friends and family in the organization and I do not minimize that. But it’s more than that, isn’t it?
Whatever can be said about the WTS one will have to admit that it is unlike anything else he has experienced. Do they have ‘the truth’ and have just mismanaged it? Why were the promises so real to us? Why do some of us still long for those things once hoped for? Is there someone else out there that has the truth? Will there ever be?
Comments?
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
waiting

My Dear Frenchy,
Too much caffine on Saturday morning is dangerous - makes the mind lively, doesn't it?
Dr. Bergman made an astute observation - at least on my coming into the Truth. The one you took issue with - I was emotionally unstable (no one could tell on the outside, btw, - really). I was looking for security for my mind and heart. I was looking for escape from my father & mother, and a replacement - even though I didn't recognize this for what it was. I wasn't, however, looking for answers to the questions of life. I was raised a Irish Catholic - I didn't really care about spiritual things. No offense to any Irish Catholics out there - that's just me and about every teenager in my Catholic school.
When I was a Catholic, nobody particularily cared. When I resigned in writing to the Catholic Church, nobody still particularily cared. But my Catholic friends still talked to me - they just recognized I was looking for another way to God, and I thought I had found it.
The Truth book had all my answers to unthought of questions - all tied up nice and neatly and understandable - somewhat simplistically - and the hope of a new family and a new Paradise world. I mean, what more could I hope for? I bought it, fought with my depression, etc., for the next 30 years. I think my background helped me not to get overly zealous in the organization - I really don't trust too well. Always a fringe person, one of those the elders counsel us not to be.
You said you were in Amway 2 weeks. May I remind you of posting to Zep that he, having studied for less than 6 months, could not comprehend what being in a mind/heart controlling organization was like - especially if one had been in such for decades? To "just walk away" was simplistic rationale?
But The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc. says it is the only: The Answer. The Saving Way. God's Organization. The Truth. The Hope of Life Everlasting. I mean, we really did think we had the answers to almost - if not all - Biblical (life's) questions, didn't we?
The anger? The WTBTS isn't any of those things, no more than any other religion. And I believed them - they were dishonest with me on serious personal matters involving my family, told me to be quiet about rapings, etc., then looked the other way when I needed them. Because we're taught not to speak about "such things. Not upbuilding for the congregation," we don't realize we are not unique in our pain. We are quite average for jw's - which is a hard realization.
The anger? We have been duped. The WTBTS has played dubiously with our hearts, minds, and whatever kind of soul we have - and we are the ones who have suffered for it.
The anger? Yes, the WTBTS has taken our families away from us. For some, years - for some, decades. Love is hard enough to find and keep in this world - we shouldn't have had to turn our backs on our families - or they to us - for not having the same spiritual beliefs. What right do we have to cause major pain and suffering in another's life - in the name of God or otherwise?
Is there another organization purporting to have The Truth? Sure, dime a dozen. Do any of them have it - in retrospect? Who knows?
But do you think that God would give His Stamp of Total Approval on an organization with such a covered-up past? Really, if when Christ came to earth looking for an organization which taught The Truth - Biblically & correctly, why would he have chosen CT Russell? I've read enough (only since leaving the org. - frowned upon to read those "old books" while in), to realize that CT Russell wrote a lot - but it sure isn't what the WTBTS is teaching now. And that "tacking" crap doesn't hold water, imo.
Do you think that God would give His Total Approval on an organization which seems determined to grow off the backs and silence of it's own members? Why would God want that for us? What makes that organization any different than any other religion organization?
Perhaps God doesn't need - or want - an organization. Perhaps He wants people to love & know Him - as is suggested by the A&E account. Perhaps the Bible is His guide - to the average man - and not an "organizational book" as the WTBTS stipulates. Perhaps the reality of a multi-billion dollar religious organization is not the simple reality of Jesus Christ teaching, forgiving, & loving.
But, as to the matter of a cult - if an organization severly punishes (mentally, emotionally, or physically) a person for leaving (officially or non-officially) that organization - imo, that organization constitutes a cult - for taking away a person's freedom of religion and choice. The Shoe Fits.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 4 November 2000 11:27:58
notsureofmyself

I was involved with the Witnesses for over 40 years and truly understand the anger of those who leave. First of all we discover that we have been deceived--betrayed. By who--the very organization that we trusted and put our faith in. We believed that it was God's organization, we believed they were the only right ones, the ones who would live thru Armageddon. We were caught up in it--24/7. It was our whole life. All of our friends were Witnesses, we were either at meetings, out in service, or studying. We made our children the different ones in school and they suffered for it. We lived in fear of the elders and their infamous committees. We never felt that we had any privacy, it always felt like someone was watching. We felt guilty if we read other books besides the W.T. material even if it were as simple as "Little house on the Prairie".
We put our whole faith and trust in the J.W.'s. We believed everything we were fed and if we did not believe we were afraid to speak out for fear of committee action. We lived with guilt, anxiety, unworthiness, depression and unhappiness. We lived with "conditional love" not love for all the brothers and sisters, but for a select few. We dealt with the elders and their "first ladies." Many of those without spouses in the organization were left out of the socializing, but we were still supposed to be out in service. Heaven help us if we had small children, that put us in leper status.
Our privacy and dignity was taken from us, whether it was how we "performed" in the privacy of our own bedroom or what we watched on television, or if we were found to be on the internet. We held low level jobs in order to pioneer, and we did not follow up with a college education even if we were given scholorship. Many of us regret the fact that we did not become what we really wanted to be--such as a veternarian. In actuality, we became "Kingdom Robots" doing everything we were told, WITHOUT question. We also pushed aside friends and especially relatives for not agreeing with our beliefs. We alienated family--which we would come to regret later on.
Why are we angry--someone dares to ask this question!!!! Whether we left voluntarily or was "put out" we had given up any of the support systems we once had in the world. Upon leaving we no longer had any type of relationship with any friends or family that were still Witnesses. We usually didn't have an education past a high school one, if that. A lot of us didn't set up retirement funds as we didn't think we would need it, alot also did not buy life insurance or further still put off starting a family; and then upon leaving found they were too old. We are shunned, treated like lepers, treated like dirt--why? It isn't because God decreed it, no, but because some men decided it for us.
There is no other organization that claims you like the Witnesses do. There is no other organization that tortures you mentally, physically and emotionally. We let them be in complete control until we to understand that something wasn't right. How do you explain away so much change, so much hypocrisy, so much conditional love?
When we leave we have no friends, some have no family, we are totally stunted in creating relationships in the world. We feel the guilt, depression and fear for a long long time--some of it never goes away. We are very disfunctional people as we have been letting a book printing plant control our every move for so long. You wanted some reason for my anger and others anger, well here they are!!
I didn't intend for this to be so long, but I got on a roll, sorry.
AhHah

Frenchy,
Good questions. There is much objective information out there to help you to analyze your experiences as a JW and arrive at your own answers. I posted just a few below.
A dictionary definition of cult: (obviously subjective)
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
click http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
click http://www.ex-cult.org/General/review.academic.research
click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/cult101.htm
click http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
Is the WTS, the Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? It would depend on whom you ask. Is it an association that controls the lives of its members. Most definitely. However, would that not be the case if it truly was what it claims to be? Would that not be its very nature, to differentiate its members from the ‘world’? Is TRUTH not unique? Once found and accepted should it not be defended against all lies and misrepresentations?
I would perhaps add to your questions above, why would a religious organization feel a need to enforce any type of control of any kind over its members? What are they afraid of if they do not attempt to do so? That people will not feel obligated to conform and will exercise their own thinking and free will? That they will dare to disagree with those men who establish the "truth", the doctrines? That the influence and power of those leaders might be undermined?
Why would any of those things be undesirable if God himself has called people to the religion and if they are certain that they have the "truth"? Would they not voluntarily comform if they were convinced of that?
If what is important about the religion is individual salvation (versus a human power structure), then why would the religion not respect the individual? Why not leave the individual's choice of what to believe, what to reject, how to live one's life, between the individual and God? Why not let the religion provide opportunity to minister to spiritual needs as opposed to dictating beliefs and actions?
So what if every person has a different concept of God? Are we not all humans with similar feelings and needs? Are we not God-like enough to be able to minister to one another without demanding complete agreement and compliance before doing so? Are we not willing to let God reveal himself to sincere individuals and let God himself provide any correction or needed adjustments in thinking or worship?
Human nature is that we seek those who tend to agree with us and avoid those who disagree with us, although that does not always serve us well. When there is mutual respect for differences, without condemnation and rejection, are we not all benefited?
How can any human organization ever justify any attempt to usurp God's authority and presume to enforce that which God reserves to himself? Where did Christ himself vest any human organization with the power that the JW religion (and many others) have appropriated for themselves?
**********************************************************************
A more disturbing question is why humans have empowered controlling human organizations with their support and loyalty. They would not even exist otherwise.
These organizations obviously provide (or at least promise to provide) something which some feel is valuable enough to surrender their friends, their own families, their children and parents, an enormous amount of their time, a willingness to die before compromising their dictated beliefs, yes they surrender their very lives. Followers are willing to accept without question that God speaks to their religious leaders even though God does not speak to them. What are they getting in return?
My theory is that they get reassurances that they cannot find evidence of through their personal experience alone. I would add that many are lazy and do not want to research and examine and analyze and think for themselves. It is easier to let others do it for them (but what a high price they pay for their laziness!). They are provided with a sense of security in a world that seems to offer none. They are convinced that their allegiance and loyalty will allow them to defy death itself, the ultimate promise, the ultimate victory, the ultimate deception!
The mysteries of a universe that exceeds our own intelligence becomes the "proof" that we must accept that which we do not understand. Thus, there MUST be a God, even though we have not met him, even though he has not spoken to us personally. Therefore, anything that anyone claims that God has done for them or revealed to them alone must be at least possible. Therein lies the hook that humans who wish to have power over others may use. All they need is the balls to say God speaks to them, be really charismatic, promise peace, happiness, brotherhood, answers to every problem and need and doubt and insecurity -- and then "Presto" -- one has a group of followers and a new religion.
Now, how do we keep our new followers? We must be different, we must offer revelations that no one else has. We must make them sound really good, the more over the top the better. After all, it comes from God and all things are possible with God -- just look around -- can YOU create a blade of grass -- well, there's your "proof"! We must also condemn all of the other unbelievers as not having God's spirit, lacking faith, not as worthy as we are -- why are we so worthy? -- gee, I don't know -- I guess we are just really special -- yeah, that's it! -- we ARE special! -- we aren't just a bunch of nobodies that are going to die like everyone else! -- we are SAVED! Thank God for Reverend Jim for recognizing how SPECIAL we are -- What's that? Drink this poison kool-aid? Go out in door-to-door every day? God cannot call people on his own? He is not powerful enough to do that? He needs our slavery? Because we are special! After all, if we do this we won't really die like everybody else, we will be saved!
So why am I so unhappy then? I guess I just don't have enough faith. I must work much harder. Maybe God will bless me then. I am so unworthy -- I am so special -- I am so unworthy -- I am so special.
Promises, deception, control, guilt = cult = humans who want power over others.
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 13:21:24
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 14:5:43
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:7:5
AhHah

Frenchy,
Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false? Are we totally convinced that it was indeed a deception?
I found it relatively easy to walk away and leave behind a lifetime of slavery once I understood that it was not God's organization. And yes, I did research for many months, and I am totally convinced that it was indeed a deception. The resultant pain is not from walking away -- that is a relief! The pain comes from the realization of all that we have lost in exchange for our slavery. Lost opportunities, lost relationships, and even the loss of one's sense of self.
I get the feeling when I read your questions that you have not personally been through this process. Is that the case?
Why do we feel so compelled to attack what was once our life’s pursuit?
Not an uncommon reaction of victims of injustice of any kind. In view of the extreme demands of the JWs and the high price that so many have paid with their lives, is that really so difficult to understand?
Edited by - AhHah on 4 November 2000 15:10:33
Simon

What is it about ex-JW’s that make them so angry? I’ve seen ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, and even one ex-Presbyterian. None of them had the anger that I see among ex-JW’s. What is the motivation of all this anger? Is it as is stated above, to “document the potential harm of this religion”? Is that truly the concern of those who have left? Why is it that even once the admission is made that the organization is false to its claims that dissidents continue to lash out at it? Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false?

I think one of the reasons is that the organisation won't let you walk away - they come after you! It is almost impossible to just disagree and leave and the way they want to 'protect the flock' by stopping anyone having any association with you means that the leaver feels they are being attacked because the society is trying to turn friends and family against them.
Because it is quite an intense religion, often people don't have any/many friends and family outside of 'the truth' unlike some of these other groups and this makes that the society does all the more important and, in my opinion, worth fighting over.
There is also the massive feeling of being cheated and of having part of your life wasted - some other groups don't demand the commitment that many JWs put in (unless you become a monk or nun I guess).
Simon

What is it about ex-JW’s that make them so angry? I’ve seen ex-Baptists, ex-Catholics, and even one ex-Presbyterian. None of them had the anger that I see among ex-JW’s. What is the motivation of all this anger? Is it as is stated above, to “document the potential harm of this religion”? Is that truly the concern of those who have left? Why is it that even once the admission is made that the organization is false to its claims that dissidents continue to lash out at it? Why is it so hard to walk away from it if we know that it is false?

I think one of the reasons is that the organisation won't let you walk away - they come after you! It is almost impossible to just disagree and leave and the way they want to 'protect the flock' by stopping anyone having any association with you means that the leaver feels they are being attacked because the society is trying to turn friends and family against them.
Because it is quite an intense religion, often people don't have any/many friends and family outside of 'the truth' unlike some of these other groups and this makes that the society does all the more important and, in my opinion, worth fighting over.
There is also the massive feeling of being cheated and of having part of your life wasted - some other groups don't demand the commitment that many JWs put in (unless you become a monk or nun I guess).
waiting

Well put, Simon, especially the second time......
waiting
waiting

by Shakespeare:
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
I truthfully doubt that there are many men who understand what he was referring to - just as I believe most women understand perfectly well his intended thought.
However, in the context of the WTBTS and our hearts, minds, - our very fiber of being - it's not much different.
We loved the Organization, we pledged our faithfullness to them - they told us that they were "God's only channel" of communication and that they would treat us gently, kindly, Christlike. They told us that they had the only sayings of life - and we couldn't find life any other way except through them.
They lied - and it has become, imo, an intentional tendency on their part to continuing lying and "tacking" whichever way they want to go.
And we, their true believers, are the ones whom they have scorned.
And we are angry.
waiting
RedhorseWoman

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of emotional responses. I agree with everything that has been said, but I'll add my own comments anyway.
I was brought up as a JW from the age of 7. I spent most of my childhood alone. We lived a good distance away from other JW children, my mother didn't drive, and, of course worldy friendships were discouraged.
School was hellish. It wasn't bad enough that I was introverted and bookish. The addition of a weird religion plummeted me to the bottom of the pecking order. No after-school activities were allowed, no school vacation was complete without plenty of field service. No holidays and having to refrain from any normal school activities with regard to holidays. I can remember taking courses in High School that were so terribly boring I wanted to cry. They finally let me mix college-level courses with my business courses so that I could have SOME sort of challenge. This wasn't generally done, however. Any dreams I had required college...which was forbidden...so I threw myself into the pursuit of a career in the ministry.
When my health fell apart after three years of pioneering, I found out just how important I was as a human being....I was a ZERO. I was made to feel like a failure to God as well as to the organization. When I had a bout with severe depression and begged one of the elders to visit me because I was afraid I might commit suicide, he told me that he couldn't because "it wouldn't look good to the World for a brother to be alone with a single sister in her apartment". My life meant nothing to him. I was a cipher....a statistic....hours and literature reported on a monthly timesheet...no more than that.
When I finally just faded away, no one cared. More than once I asked for help to try to go back, and I was told as the sisters hurriedly scuttled away, "You know, we just learned at the meeting that it is 7 times harder to come back from being inactive than it is to come into the Truth in the first place." I knew that....I wanted help....they told me to do it alone.
They took my childhood, they turned my adolescence into a drab parody of life, they took a bright future of learning and discovery that might have been and turned it into a bleak period of drudgery and failure. Then I was discarded like an old shoe....of no consequence. I was left with no social skills, no education, no idea of what to do with my life.
Angry? Yes, and I feel rightfully so.

Reflections

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