Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

by hooberus 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

hooberus

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it was the good pleasure `of the Father' that in him should all the fulness dwell; ASV

The Watchtower interprets the word "firstborn" as being synomous with first created, and argues that Colossians 1:15 proves that Christ is a created being.
The watchtower interpretation has the following problems:
1. It makes Christ a created "thing." However verse 16 states that Christ is creator of "all things" hense, He could not also be a "thing". John 1:3 specifically excludes Christ from being a "thing": "All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made."
2. The Watchtower adds the word "other" in order to make their interpretation work. The greek text says "all things" not "all other things". The watchtower also has a contaradiction between Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6. The Watchtower does not also add the word "other" to these verses.
3. The Watchtower interpretation makes two "Gods" involved in creation. Jehovah who creates all things through a different "god." However the bible says that all things were of and through the Lord (Jehovah). And that Jehovah acted "alone" in creation. see part Troublesome Trinity Verses part 10.
hooberus

Trinitarians interpret the word "firstborn" as being synomous with pre-eminence and argue that the passage shows Christ to be pre-eminent over creation.
Notice How in Genesis 49:3 the phrase "first-born" is synomous with "pre-eminence."
Genesis 49:3 Reuben, thou art my first-born, my might, and the beginning of my strength; The pre-eminence of dignity, and the pre-eminence of power.
Under this interpretation Christ is the "firstborn" in the sense that He is pre-eminent over creation (because he is the creator).
Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
hooberus

The phrase "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 may also refer to Christs position as a "man" positionally above all creation.
A comparison of Ephesians 1:20-23 with the passage in Colossians shows a very similar phrase structure. Ephesians 1:20 shows Christs position at the right hand of the Father, that he is positionally above all "power and dominion" Thus the phrase "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 would possibly compare to Ephesians 1:20 which discusses Christs position over all things. This would make the word firstborn refer to position (similar to pre-eminence see above). According to this interpretation Christs being the "firsborn" means that he is positionally over all things.
Ephesians 1:20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly `places',
Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Ephesians 1:22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 1:23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it was the good pleasure `of the Father' that in him should all the fulness dwell;
zen nudist

the parallel often ignored is first born of creation, first born of the dead. seems clear enough that protokos [firstborn or pro-type] has the meaning of the very first one raised to immortality and thus first born of all creation would mean first of all creatures. as to all things vs all [other] things, this is not an unusual construct, in another verse Paul says that God subjected ALL things to Jesus, then he clarifies with the obvious exception of the ONE who subjected all things to him.... and then he makes the conclusion that once Jesus has brought all things back to perfection he will turn it back over to God so that God may be all things to everyone... which is complete non-sense and idiocy if Jesus already IS GOD.
as to other god[s], the bible calls Jehovah the El Elyon, the GOD of gods and angels were viewed as part of the Elohim or gods.
note too that trinitarians often overlook that they claim God is three who[s] but ONE what... yet the bible clearly says that Jehovah is God alone, that HE [not THEY] is the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus called him the very same thing in John 17:3.
When Jesus said I and my father are one -- I and the SOURCE of me are ONE... the jews assumed that he was claiming to be either EQUAL to GOD or GOD incarnated....[john10] yet the response of Jesus was not to acknowledge their claim and agree with it... far from it, he turned it on them and showed them according to psalms, all those who seat themselves upon the judgement seat are called God[s] because they are acting in the authority and power of God to judge life and death... here they were accusing Jesus of blapheme because of claiming to be one with GOD yet they were not doing anything different by claiming to be Judges of life and death and thus making themselves guilty of what they falsely viewed as a crime in the first place.... so if Jesus were guilty of a crime, so where they... but Jesus goes further and says, he never claimed to be GOD, but only God's son. [which all Jews thought themselves to be as part of Israel, my first born]
--beyond that, check out EVERY vision of heaven given in the bible, like Daniel, Acts, and the Revelations... three witnesses from heaven which agree-- that there is always ONE upon the throne called Ancient of Days, God and THE LORD GOD...and another [not two others] with him.. the son of man, Jesus and the lamb, the lion of Judah who is Jesus.... there is NO vision of heaven which says different, NO vision which has the holy spirit as a person, infact revelations has it as 7 bowls of fire and seven angels who carry out the will of God... acting as his eyes and hands... it is even called the finger of God in the gospels.
this also agrees with John 1:1 which has ONE GOD and the WORD [no Holy spirit person] and 1Cor8:5-6 which showed that in comparison to all other god[s], there is to us [chrisitans?] but ONE GOD, the FATHER and one LORD Jesus.... again NO holy spirit mentioned as a co- anything.
Personalizing the HOLY spirit makes sense in context with Revelations which again shows that it is seven angels which act as the eyes and hands of GOD, but are NOT themselves GOD but speak for him and in his name, as in the ANGEL of the burning bush who spoke AS Jehovah.
Room 215

Simply put, and however much sophistry is lavished on the topic, the notion that the God who created the universe and all animate life with all its iinfinitely intricate compleity, diversityand interdependence, once briefly walked the earth as a human,is preposterous.
hooberus

zen, some of your points have been discussed in previous "Troublesome Trinity Verses" threads, others may be discussed in future ones. The goal of this series of threads is to deal with each verse or closely related concept one thread at a time, otherwise these trinity discussions go all over the place. I do hope to respond to some of your points on Colossians 1:15 though.
Alf3831

Hooberus,
Quick question. In Colossians 1:20, would you include Satan and his demons amongst "all things reconciled to God?" Or does the text allow for "all things" to have some implied exceptions?
~Alf3831
hooberus

The phrase "all things" in Col. 1:20 may possibly allow some implied exceptions.
However the situation is different regarding Colossians 1:16 for the following reason:
Colossians 1:16 is parallel with John 1:3. "all things have been created through him, and unto him;" "All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made." John 1:3
The last part of John 1:3 says "without him was not anything made that hath been made." This phrase qualifies the "all things" in the first part of the verse as truely being "all things that were made" This phrase: "without him was not anything made that hath been made" clearly shows that all things that have been made were made through Christ, not all "other" things.
John 1:3 simply does not allow for the word "other" to be used of Christ in creation. Perhaps this is why the NWT does not add the word "other" in John 1:3.
hooberus

According to noted commentator Adam Clarke (who has been quoted by the watchtower) the phrase "firstborn of every creature" KJV in Colossians 1:15 is actually a Jewish phrase applied to Jehovah!
"As the Jews term Jehovah "the firstborn of all the world" or "of all the creation," to signify His having created or produced all things, so Christ is here termed, and the words that follow in the sixteenth and seventeenth verse verses are proof of this. The phraseology is Jewish; . . . "
The sixteenth and seventeenth verses of Colossians chapter 1 do show that Jesus is Jehovah the creator (compare to Nehemiah 9:6).
"Thou art Jehovah, even thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee." Nehemiah 9:6 ASV
Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17 ASV
Keep in mind that the Bible says that all things were of and through the Lord (Jehovah). And that Jehovah acted "alone" in creation. see part Troublesome Trinity Verses part 10.
gumby

Hooberus,
Why don't you give it a rest and realise your trying to figure out and make sense of a book so full of flaws and man's idea's, that you will never make sense of it! Try golfing or something....it's better for the mind!
Gumby

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

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