To Be Like the World or What

by Satanus 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Satanus

While writing this i found it changed direction in the middle. Here is a roadmap. The first part is a critique of wt nonworldliness dogma. The second is concerning identity.
Wt makes a big issue of 'not being like the world'. Yet, jw's are like the world in a multitude of ways. They
listen to 'worldly' music and radio
watch 'worldly' movies, television
go to 'woldly' night clubs and bars
work at 'worldly' jobs that support the 'worldly' structure
wear 'worldly' clothes: blue jeans, tshirts, suits which originated from the military
watch 'worldly' sports either on tv or live, cheering for one team or another
go to 'worldly' music concerts
Yet, in spite of allowing their members to indulge in of above mentioned, and other 'worldly' habits in a multitude of ways, the wt claims it's org is not part of the world. Obviously, their claims aren't worth even the paper on which they are written.
In 'the true believer' eric hoffer discusses the natures of the different social groups that form mass movements. They generally join mass movements because of dissatidfaction w their own lot. The find their lives to be hopeless, miserable, boring. They are tossing their own identity for that of a mass movement. Is there an ideal identity, to which the individual should/could strive?
I'm not sure. A couple of processes do seem to be good for all. They are:
overcoming our fears
being our true selves
However, these developments are not possible for many, especially early in their lives. Most normal people go through various phases of identity development. The earliest may be identifying w the mother. Next, for boys, identifying w the father. Then identifying w the family. Followed by identifying w ones school/religion/race/country. Theoretically, at some later time, one would drop these outside identities, thus finding an identity uniquely his/her own. I call this integrity. Spiritual masters take it a step further, experiencing an identity that is more than the body.
What are your experiences/ideas on identity?
SS
larc

SS,

Very interesting analysis, indeed. I think that some people don't go through stages of developement. As Eric Hoffer pointed out, some stay fixated at the level of true belief in the authoritarian world set up by someone else, and never move on from there. If they move, it is to another autocratic belief system, that requires no intellectual effort on their part to comprehend or understand. It is still, blind obedience.

Those are my thoughts on this rather weighty subject.
Satanus

larc
If they move, it is to another autocratic belief system, that requires no intellectual effort on their part to comprehend or understand. It is still, blind obedience.
Yes, this is sad. There are some visitors here like that. Will they start to think freely before they die?
SS
undercover

They may do these things but they are admonished to not do these things. They try to make you feel guilty for being normal.
listen to 'worldly' music and radio
Worldly music is debasing. Beware debasing music. Kingdom melodies are uplifting. Listen to them to feel closer to Jehovah(I guess he prefers bad music)
watch 'worldly' movies, television
Well, R-rated movies are out. Television should be limited. Nothing "adult" oriented should be watched. "Be babes as to badness".
go to 'woldly' night clubs and bars
That's a definite no-no. I remember all the articles about discos or music clubs and how bad they are. Bars are full of worldly people. We shouldn't seek our entertainment with them.
work at 'worldly' jobs that support the 'worldly' structure
Even here they try to get you. Do not go to college. Without college, you can't get the higher paying jobs(avg person that is). They encourage people to work part-time and be full-time ministers.
wear 'worldly' clothes: blue jeans, tshirts, suits which originated from the military
They are constantly harping on not keeping up with the latest fad. Jeans and t-shirts(without slogans or logos) maybe ok for working in, but true christians try to represent God's organization in a clean manner at all times, by not copying the styles of the world.
watch 'worldly' sports either on tv or live, cheering for one team or another
Witnesses have been counsled on watching violent sports(boxing, football, hockey and even auto racing). Taking time to go to a sporting event would be better spent in the service. Witnesses would NEVER miss a meeting to go to a worldly sporting event. Even participating in pick-up games get the treatment. Bodily training is beneficial for a little...
go to 'worldly' music concerts
They have warned about these too. Rock concerts are a definite spiritual danger. Even classical music has been warned against, depending on the situation. Is it Christmas season? Then the ballet is out because it will be the Nutcracker and that is a regular Christmas presentation.
While these may not be DFing types of things, they are definitely looked down on and discouraged by the WTS. Witnesses that consistently keep doing these things are considered to be weak and are sometimes black-listed by others who consider themselves holier somehow.
Room 215

When is it ``respective to local custom" and when is it ``conforming to the world?" In WT's pick-and-choose theology, it depends on the whim of the leaders. In matters of dress, for example, did Jesus and his apostles wear single-breasted or double-breasted suits; bowties or neckties, white or patterned dress shirts?
Satanus

The wt has warned against many of these activities, but dubs do them anyway. As room pointed out, the wt picks and chooses what qualifies as worldly and what doesn't. It's totally meaningless, really. Wt just uses it as a mass controling mechanism.
The point i was trying to make, in this thread, is that coercing people to be like something that they are not is probably harmful. It is true that we need controling from infringing on the rights of others, but beyond that, why should anyone's way of life or powers of expression be curtailed?
SS
undercover

...that coercing people to be like something that they are not is probably harmful. It is true that we need controling from infringing on the rights of others, but beyond that, why should anyone's way of life or powers of expression be curtailed?

I agree with you, but the WTS obviously doesn't. It trys to make everyone conform to standards that they(the WTS) have set. They will say individuality and being able to express yourself is good and allowed by the Bible on one hand but on the other hand will set all these "principles" that true christians "should" or "would" follow and use it to control the people and make them conform to their preconceived standards.
While I can see certain standards being kept for people in positions of responsibility(i.e. COs, Bethelites, etc.) and I don't mean to the point they do it now, if it isn't spelled out directly in the Bible, then each one should use his Bible-trained conscience to decide matters. Case in point, beards. Brothers can't have beards. What Bible principle is that based on? It's a man-made tradition handed down. While the WTS can impose this on Bethelites(It is their property, after all) and maybe upon COs who technically work for the corporation, this non-Bible-backed requirement shouldn't be able to be enforced upon the R&F. But the R&F allow themselves to conform to a standard that doesn't have one iota of backing in the Bible. And when one person bucks the tradition he will be viewed as weak or rebellious and will be watched closely by the elders. All because a brother decides to groom himself differently than what is considered the accepted norm(by the WTS). He has broken no law, principle or even a fashion faux pas. He will either fight the system and pay for it in friendships and/or positions or give up, give in, accept that he can't be himself and his spirit is broken.
Sentinel

SS,
For those of us who were born into the JW life, or those that were "trained up" from a young age, we knew of very little about any "choices" we actually had. We conformed, mostly out of respect for parent(s), who were guiding us.
As we grew and began to go to school, we learned about this "world", and how we were supposed to live in it, take all the good from it, but otherwise shun everything it stands for. This was the oxymoron and continues to be. Life became confusing and undefined the more we tried to adapt to the rules and regulations of the borg.
Most of us here have taken a closer look at the true picture. For some of us, it took a very long time, and the cost was very high. The freedom of choice is there for all, but it can be a painful choice, when we stand to lose family and friends. Our very foundation is shaken and collapses, and we have to work on building a new one.
The natural maturing of the human being is subverted by the JW's. The self is lost. It takes a lot of initiative and hard work to fix all the things that need to be fixed. If we simply leave JW's, and grab hold of something else, just to "have some thing" we can even add to our burden. Another religion, another belief. We've had someone tell us what to do for so long, that we become co-dependent on that type of relationship. This is dangerous and harmful to our personal spiritual journey. We just need to be still and listen to our heart. The answers will come when our mind can let go and let be.
I read lots of encouraging posts here, and I can see people working through some difficult situations, relationships, shunning, loss, sadness, devestation, and on and on. We can really make a difference to someone else, simply by being here.

To Be Like the World or What

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