I wrote this just because I recently saw some people on another site trying to defend the 607 date. This is mostly for lurkers, those who still may be hodling onto the idea that there is truth in this date.
Probably one of the most talked about WT doctrines is that of 1914 and the 'Gentile Times'. So much historical and Biblical information is out there on this subject it can boggle the mind of active and inactive JWs alike.
This isn't to say I have a problem with all this discussion, it is quite important. But when it comes down to it, there seems to be some undisputable things that can't be avoided. I believe that when we simply take what the WTS teaches on these things and follow them through the entire way the absurdity of it all plainly stands out. These points are:
- Nothing the Watchtower claimed that would happen before or on 1914 ever happened
- What actually did happen in 1914 (a war) the WTS specifically said WOULD NOT happen
While nothing happened as they had speculated, something did happen. That was WWI. The Watchtower eventually took on a mode of thinking that 1914 wasn't a date that was the end, but the beginning.
But let's follow through! Don't forget that specific claims where made about what would happen after that date as well. Let us not forget the generation teaching. For decades the WTS held that 1914 and the End of the world where tied togeather in the most crucial way. They taught that the generation of 1914 would never see death. So not only did they proclaimed amazing things to happen before this date, but amazing things tied to this date where to occur after it as well. But what actually happened:
- The generation that was not going to pass away is passing away before our eyes.
- In 1995 the WTS now teaches that the end is not specifically tied to the 1914 generation.
CONCLUSION:
If we put all of the ancient history & Biblical interpretation debate aside what are we left with? What are we left with when we look at what this date really means? The conclusions are indisputable:
All of the promises the Watchtower have made regarding the date 1914 have not come true. Not only did everything they proclaimed before the date not happen, everything they said that was tied to that date in the future didn't happen as well!
Now we are left with the WTS saying that there is no connection between 1914 and the end at all (well, just a very loose one).
My question to all of you lurkers is this, why would you continue to think that JWs have special knowledge about 1914 when everything they have boasted about it has failed. What differance does it make if Jesus came in 1914 or not if NOTHING SIGNIFICANT IT TIED TO IT????
1914, 607 and why the details don't mean as much as the bigger picture
by drew sagan 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
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Zico
Good post Drew. Have you read 'Captives of a Concept'? (The name of the authour escapes me at the moment) He makes some interesting observations about 1914. Most notably, since the bible students believed that Jesus had already arrived in 1874, they were not even ready for his arrival in 1914, so whilst Christendom was awaiting his return, bible students would not have been paying attention to his arrival. In fact, since they didn't teach Jesus' parousia happened till 1943, Russell and Rutherford would have been completely unaware that Jesus' didn't arrive till 1914, believing it had happened 40 years earlier. I find this point important, since I've heard JWs mock 'Christendom' for not realising Jesus has been ruling for over 90 years.
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justsomedude
What actually did happen in 1914 (a war) the WTS specifically said WOULD NOT happen
This is probably posted all over the place and Ive just managed to miss it for the last year and a half that Ive been here, but when did they say that war wouldnt happen in that year? I'd love to have that little piece of info.
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drew sagan
Good point Zico.
Hopefully we can get some feedback from those who still hold to this date, I'd love for some discussion on what importance this date actually now that it has been stripped of much meaning by the WTS.
After well over 100 years of teaching things about this date that they themselves agree are not true, we are left with a date that establishes Watchtower leadership and simply gives people the feeling that the end is close. -
Terry
I'd venture to say that not one JW in 100 could sit you down and go through an explanation of the 1914 doctrine. There would be some who might try. I've seen them do it. But, it bogs down fast! Any lucid or logical question puts a screeching halt to the fanciful figures being flung.
I had been 6 years a Jehovah's Witness before I tackled the darned thing and started memorizing how to present it. In the process of memorizing it something became clear to me. This was going to be like memorizing a physics equation and not a real explanation from the mind. Something intelligible was missing and that was the sanity of linking this with that and coming up with 1914. It all smelled like a jury-rig from start to finish.
Suffice to say in my discussions with various JW's I always asked how the other fella could explain it. I remember an assistant Congregation Overseer (that's what they called them back then) telling me. "It don't matter none. The goats in Christendom don't have the intelligence to understand what you're tellin' them anyway." And that was that!
When a JW is challenged about 1914 here is what happens.
They secretly run to their JW reference book and read through the Society's explanation as best they can. They satisfy themselves that somebodysomewhere understands it (and that somebody is a whole lot smarter than they are) and they relax. They will bring the reference book to the critic and tell them to read it for themselves. But, under no circumstances will any sane JW try to go it alone.
This doctrine takes the body parts of something long dead and sews the parts together and then waits for lightning to strike to make it sit up and blink. It is a real monster of a theology.
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drew sagan
Terry:
So True! What a monster it is. The idea that some guy somewhere knows the answers it the entire JW expierance in a nutshell. Put all your faith in a nameless guy who wrote some book you don't really even understand. I Just decided to post my thoughts for today in hopes some lurkers could be helped. I know they don't want to talk about it, I know I never did as a JW!
justsomedude:
This is the quote you are looking for:.... the daily papers and the weeklies and monthlies, religious and secular, are continually discussing the prospects of war in Europe. They note the grievances and ambitions of the various nations and predict that war is inevitable at no distant day, that it may begin at any moment between some of the great powers, and that the prospects are that it will eventually involve them all.... We do not think that the prospects of a general European war are so marked as is commonly supposed. True, all Europe is like a great powder magazine which a single stray match might set off at any moment with a tremendous explosion. The various nations are armed to the teeth with the most destructive weapons that skill and ingenuity can invent, and there are national grievances and bickerings and hatred that must find a vent some time; and in consideration of these things the war cloud is always impending and ever darkening: but things may continue just so for many years, and we think they will.... Even should a war or revolution break out in Europe sooner than 1905, we could not consider it any portion of the severe trouble predicted. At most it could be a forerunner of it, a mere 'skirmish' as compared with what is to come.
The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. Thus far it has been chiefly a battle of words and a time of organizing forces.... Never was there such a general time of banding together as at present. Not only are nations allying with each other for protection against other nations, but the various factions in every nation are organizing to protect their several interests. [Zion's Watch Tower, January 15, 1892, pp. 19-23] -
Satanus
Yah but but but, you can't deny all those invisible things that the wt claimed. Lessee, jesus came invisibly, he came after he beat up satan (jesus got turned on from all that violence), all jesus' angels beat up on all the demons (the angels didn't come, though), jesus started judging, jesus sat down (after he came) on his thrown, jesus spoke to charles russel and judge rutherford, jesus appointed charles russel and jf rutherford as his only org and speaker on the earth.
S
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bernadette
roflmaso at satanus - wicked
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moggy lover
Terry: Gosh you bring back memories !! I recall this incident as if it were yesterday, when I was out in the d2d work with the son of of one of our elders in the local congreation,[He would have been in his fifties, so I'm not talking of some kid] when I was confronted at the door by this kindly old gent who enquired about how we arrived at what he considered the absurd notion of Christ's invisible retutn in 1914. Realizing that it would take time to explain, and was far too complex to simply retell in one sitting just there on the doorstep, since it requires the basic understanding that "this" means "that" and "this" multiplies by "that" to get whatever, I ventured to come back at a more appropriate time.
But the elders son, who assumed that I was incapable of summing up a basic doctrine of the WTS, and who regarded himself as an expert in this field, suddenly leapt in and started to unravel the teaching as he conceived it to be. From my vantage point, as an unintended observer, I soon found my self listening to the most bizarre piece of nonsense I had ever had the misfortune to hear.
In the middle of trees which did'nt actually mean trees being cut down, there were a confusing set of figures like 360 which had to be multiplied by 7 to arrive at a time when satan was expelled from heaven, or was it Christ? then you had all these angels putting bands around this tree, or was it trees?
For some reason that was'nt all together clear, that tree began to grow again after 1914,and then you had all these nations which had not yet recognized that they had been done away with, because of some condition called either the Gentile times or the "Appointed times of the Nations" [In fact he belaboured the point to the extent that even he was losing track of what he was saying]
Of course, in this amalgam, days became years, by some mysterious alchemy which he failed to either grasp, or explain, and "times" were becoming confused with seasons and the multiplication function This is what it came out as: seven times three hundred and sixty leaves 2520 times, which of course are'nt times but years.......
The old bloke at the door who had been listening, and who doubtless had come to the firm conclusion that the speaker was mentally unhinged, simply said after this recital:
"Biggest piece of bollocks I ever heard !"
Cheers
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bennyk
Most notably, since the bible students believed that Jesus had already arrived in 1874, they were not even ready for his arrival in 1914, so whilst Christendom was awaiting his return, bible students would not have been paying attention to his arrival. In fact, since they didn't teach Jesus' parousia happened till 1943, Russell and Rutherford would have been completely unaware that Jesus' didn't arrive till 1914, believing it had happened 40 years earlier.
Yep. And the Greatest Man book states (chapters 131 and/or 132) that when Jesus arrived in 1914, only his true disciples saw it. So I guess that "proves" that the Bible Students (later called JW's) were not his true disciples. The Society continued to teach that the Second Parousia began in 1874 until at least 1929 (Prophecy book).