Did Paul admit his writings are not infallible?

by logansrun 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logansrun
    logansrun


    Notice this:

    1 Corinthians 7:25 -- "Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful."

    Does not Paul here tell his readers flat out that what he is about to say is not inspired, at least not in the JW/fundamentalist idea of "the Bible writers were only secretaries for God"?

    Later this:

    1 Corinthians 7:40 -- "But she is happier if she [a widower] remains as she is, according to my opinion. I certainly think I also have God's spirit."

    Again, Pauls "opinion"? And, what does he mean he "thinks" he has God's spirit? You mean he's not sure about this? Is this his best guess?

    Also:

    2 Corinthians 8:10 -- "And in this I render an opinion...finish up also the doing of it..."

    An opinion is just that, isn't it? Not the infallible word of God come down from on high.

    Comments? What does this say about the notion of inspiration and/or supposed Biblical infallibility?

    Bradley

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I agree that the contrast between epitagé "command" and gnomé "opinion" in 1 Corinthians 7:25, 2 Corinthians 8:8, 10 is intended to mark counsel that Paul did not want to claim to be divinely authoritative. This is in deference to the other opinions by other apostles and leaders (such as Cephas and Apollos) esteemed in Corinth. See especially the emphatic emén "my" in 1 Corinthians 7:40 which implies that other opinions (e.g. your opinion) may exist. In trying to get the different factions into a unity, Paul does not want to go too far in forcing his opinion in areas where he disagrees with the other church leaders. Thus he says: "I give this advice rather by way of permission and indulgence than of injunction and command (epitagén)" (7:6). Interestingly, too, the proto-gnostic Sophia theology of the Apollos party alluded to in the early chapters of 1 Corinthians accords well with the disparagement of marriage that is assumed in ch. 7 (compare with the overt double condemnation of the forbidding of marriage and gnostic theology in the later Pastorals).

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Gotta run, but offhand I remember reading how the earliest Church fathers, such as Ignatius and Clement of Rome referred to his letters as authoritative yet did not elevate them to the class of "scripture". I'm sure Leolaia or someone could set me straight or elaborate on this point...

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Yet again I have learned something on this board which I was not taught as a JW and I studied Greek at school!

  • Mary
    Mary

    Logan I agree with you 100%. I don't think Paul was "inspired" when he wrote his letters----he was giving his opinion, end of story. On some things, you can really notice the difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul was saying. It was Paul who instituted shunning, not Jesus, who condemned the Pharisees for shunning people who they thought were at the bottom of the food chain. Since Paul used to be a Pharisee, it shouldn't come as any surprise that his attitute would carry over when he "saw the light" on the road to Damascus.

    Paul also seemed to have a major problem with women. He told them how to dress, how to behave, how to submit to their husbands, how to keep their mouths shut. Notice he says "I do not permit a woman to teach..."

    It appears that Paul's teachings offended some in the early congregations and at one point they wanted to beat the holy hell out of him when they found out he had been less than honest with them. It's a shame that the early Christian church hadn't continued through James instead of Paul. It might have aleviated 2,000 years of misery for many.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    I don't think Paul was "inspired" when he wrote his letters----he was giving his opinion, end of story.


    You're certainly entitled to believe that, but I don't think it follows from the texts cited at the beginning of the thread. Those were a couple of specific instances within Paul's letters where he stated that he was giving a personal opinion. In general, he certainly claimed God's authority for what he taught and wrote (e.g., Gal. 1:1; Titus 1:3).

    It was Paul who instituted shunning, not Jesus, who condemned the Pharisees for shunning people who they thought were at the bottom of the food chain

    Neither Paul nor Jesus advocated shunning of the sort practiced by the Watchtower; blame Freddie Franz for that. Paul did direct a type of shunning for sinners within the congregation, which appears to have been a withdrawal of membership in the church. Persons to whom it was applied were not to be cut off from every aspect of life, but Paul's instruction was to "admonish him as a brother" (2 Thess. 3:15). Also, the shunning was to be imposed personally, not organizationally, since Paul refers to it as "this punishment that was inflicted by the majority" (not, by all)(2 Cor. 2:6). The Watchtower has corrupted Paul's teaching for its own purposes of maintaining power over its membership.

    Paul also seemed to have a major problem with women

    On the contrary, given the time in which he lived, it might be fair to call Paul a liberal. He came from a Jewish society in which women were basically regarded as property, and could be beaten by their husbands, sent away (divorced) on a whim and generally had scarcely more rights than cattle. Paul, on the other hand, advocated women as of equal status with their husbands and encouraged husbands to love their wives and treat them tenderly, even to the point of dying for them if need be, as Christ had for His congregation. That was radical thinking in those days. It's really not fair to judge Paul, a first century theologian, by the political climate of the 21st century.

    The only areas in which Paul restricted women were in terms of headship in marriage and holding pastoral duties within the church. And many Christians today disagree with the latter on a theological basis. There are several good arguments going around today contending that Paul never intended to restrict women from being pastors (though I am not personally convinced of them). In any event, women certainly served in many capacities in the church, even teaching in certain circumstances, but not as pastors.

    It's a shame that the early Christian church hadn't continued through James instead of Paul

    I'm not sure you'd like that any better. James appears to have been more legalistic than Paul, more bound to the continuance of Jewish tradition and placed more emphasis on works as related to salvation than grace through faith. Not that I believe that James' message contradicts Paul's, but the emphasis is certainly different. If James had had more influence than he did (and his lesser influence in the developing church may simply have been a function of his early death), Christians today might still be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles (not that there's anything wrong with that) .

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Excellent point as are the responses.

    In simple terms it shows that not ALL Scripture is Inspried of God, some of it was just what Paul happened to think at the time and was honest enough to state.

    If only he'd made it more clear to Timbo and then he could have said all Scripture is Inspired of God apart from those bits in Corinthians where Paul saw fit to elevate himself to Godly status and insert his own personal teachings into the book, and well I wonder if any of the other bible writers slipped in a command or two of their own....

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    In the "all scripture is inspired" verse it's interesting to note that at the time it was written, only the OT was truly considered "scripture". It's not really valid to interpret that verse was also referring to a specific 27 book closed canon which didn't yet exist.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Neither Paul nor Jesus advocated shunning of the sort practiced by the Watchtower; blame Freddie Franz for that.

    You're right---I should have been more specific.

    Persons to whom it was applied were not to be cut off from every aspect of life, but Paul's instruction was to "admonish him as a brother" (2 Thess. 3:15).

    Interesting, but what about that scripture where he says not even to "say a greeting" to these ones?? Wouldn't that indicate total shunning?

    On the contrary, given the time in which he lived, it might be fair to call Paul a liberal. He came from a Jewish society in which women were basically regarded as property, and could be beaten by their husbands, sent away (divorced) on a whim and generally had scarcely more rights than cattle. Paul, on the other hand, advocated women as of equal status with their husbands and encouraged husbands to love their wives and treat them tenderly, even to the point of dying for them if need be, as Christ had for His congregation. That was radical thinking in those days. It's really not fair to judge Paul, a first century theologian, by the political climate of the 21st century

    Sorry, I respectfully disagree. Paul was no liberal, as he emphasized the woman had to be "in subjection" to her husband and to "obey him". He emphasized that the husband was "the head of the woman" and he stressed that he did not "permit a woman to teach" in the congregation and "let a woman learn in silence." By the standards of 2,000 years ago, I think Paul's attitude was fairly typical thinking and given his Pharisee background, it should come as no surprise. On the other hand, I feel that Jesus had a far more liberal attitude towards women given the time they lived in.

  • Special K
    Special K

    This youngster sure has aged and moved tooo..

    hmm?

    SK

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