I won't eat or drink

by peacefulpete 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    OK, a verse that had always thought odd was Luke 22:16,18 (cf Matt 26:29Mark 14:25, Luke 22:18) where Jesus is made to say when reclining to eat the meal " For I say to you that never in any way will I eat of it until it is bountifully provided in the kingdom of God!" and "Truly I say to you,that in no way will I drink from the produce of the vine until the Kingdom of God is come!"

    I know the numerous attempts to interpret the passage as symbolic but it sounds to me like a vow to abstain until the kingdom arrived. To make sense of it some translators add a word or two in the text to suggest he meant after the present meal. It makes little sense in the context here to have Jesus vow to abstain from wine and food on the last night of his life. Yet It also makes little sense to understand wine and bread in a heavenly setting (tho heaven is not implied in this passage).

    Luke uniquely adds in vers 30 that there would be eating and drinking at Jesus' table in his kingdom over the tribes of Israel.

    Interestingly the Gospel according to the Hebrews has Jesus appearing to James, "For James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour in which he had drunk the cup of the Lord until he should see him risen..." Jesus proceeds to take bread, and bless it, and broke it and gives it to James. Here the point is clearly that the sworn fast from food or wine is an expression of faith in the certainty of that what was promised. It was comon to announce such a fast as a commitment and faith. In Acts (23:21) the story includes a glimpse into the practice when in has Paul's enemies swearing to not "eat nor drink until they had killed him."

    Some have suggested that Jesus was originally made to say these words in another setting, as a declaration of imminence for his kingdom, and only later relocated to a meal setting by Mark and ellaborated by Luke. However Luke adds the eating the meal vow not in Mark or Matt, was he truly winging it or did he have a source? Eisenman suggests a source and that the original tradition may be better preserved in GHebrews and that it was James that was made to say the words expressing faith in Jesus and his kingdom and resurrection. Perhaps a rival faction not desiring to elevate James (who in the canonical tradition is not a disciple until after the resurrection) as a model of faith, transferred the vow to Jesus' mouth and eventually it wound up in the last supper setting.

    Any thoughts?

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    peacefulpete,

    Perhaps Jesus was simply stating that He didn't have the luxury of eating with his apostles until the kingdom is established. John 5:17 states that,"My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working."

    michelle

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    PP.....I have already suggested in earlier posts that the Great Commission, attested in Matthew and Pseudo-Mark as given during the post-resurrection appearances, had an original context in (oral) tradition within the Last Supper -- with the wine and bread symbolism originally referring to vineyard that Jesus entrusts to his disciples in Mark 12:1-2, Matthew 21:33-46, and Luke 20:9-19 (a parable placed prior to the Last Supper in the Markan Jerusalem narrative) and the teaching that is distributed (like broken bread) to those who will receive it throughout the known world. This suggestion has the support of the Eucharist formulae in the Didache and the symbolism of bread and grain in the synoptics. This would be the meaning of the Eucharist presumably in Syrian Jewish-Christian communities (such as represented by Q and the Gospel of Thomas) that took little note of Jesus' death and resurrection, as opposed to Mark and Paul where these events themselves represented the gospel to be proclaimed. With this in view, it is interesting that the Gospel of the Hebrews places a parallel of Luke 22:16, 18 (i.e. spoken within the Last Supper) in a post-resurrection appearance. Might this be a fragment of an older "commission" tradition?

    It's an interesting idea that the vow was originally placed on the lips of James the Just, and subsequently transferred to Jesus. If this was the case, I would think it would be in a tradition that antedates our extant gospels. The practice of fasting, moreover, was rejected by the Pauline Christians but practiced by Ebionites and other Jewish-Christians (cf. Didache, Matthew's Q Sermon), so the conversion of a fasting vow into something different would also fit the gospels that emerged among Gentile converts. But within the context of Mark and Luke, I can see how the declaration works if the symbolism works in the terms described above. My rough interpretation is that Jesus, in conferring on his disciples a "kingdom" (cf. Luke 22:29), was conferring on them his vineyard, his seed to be sown, and the "bread" to be distributed to those who will make up the new community in the kingdom. This is a similar concept of Jesus transferring his halakic authority to his apostles in Matthew 18:18. In short, he was handing over his "bread and wine" to them, as he was handing his kingdom over to them, so that they would be the ones to pass on the teaching to others. And, indeed, this passage is the very end of Jesus' teaching in the synoptics. The Passion narrative commences at 22:39, and from there onwards Jesus is presented no longer as a wisdom teacher but as the suffering servant from Deutero-Isaiah. So, in a real sense, Jesus "fasts" from his role as rabbi, and will not again share in his disciples' kingdom until he returns and brings them to the table of the Father (Luke 22:30; cf. Matthew 19:28). However, this sense was altered when the Pauline body-consumption motif was incorporated into the gospels (in the case of Luke, verbatim wording from 1 Corinthians).

    Yet it also makes little sense to understand wine and bread in a heavenly setting (tho heaven is not implied in this passage).

    Well, there is another angle to this that cannot be ignored. The statement in Luke 22:30 (re the apostles eating and drinking "at my table in my kingdom," as they sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel") is strikingly reminiscent of statements in Papias of Hierapolis and Irenaeus of Lyons on the "enjoyment of food" in the earthly millenial kingdom, during which time "the Lord will reign in the flesh with the saints" (cf. Eusebius, HE 3.39.11-13; Jerome, Famous Men 18; Maximus the Confessor, Scholia in Dionysii 7.2). Similarly, Dionysius of Alexandria described Cerinthus' chiliasm as expecting an "earthly" kingdom of Christ with carnal "delights of the belly and of sexual passion, with eating and drinking and marrying" as well as with "festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims" (HE 3.28.4-5). There is especially the famous grotesque fragment of Papias (cited in Irenaeus, AH 5.33.3-4), which expands a quotation from 2 Baruch 29:5-6 into an extended discussion between Jesus and his apostles on the renewal of creation in the millenium. Since Papias gave interpretations and illustrative stories to particular oracles of Jesus, the most likely "oracle" at the basis of this fragment in Papias is Matthew 26:27-29/Luke 22:16-18. The main evidence for this is the fact that Irenaeus cited the story in the course of an exegesis of the same oracle:

    "For this reason, when about to undergo his sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after he had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: 'Drink all of it: this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.' Thus, then, he will himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [his] sons; as David says, 'He who hath renewed the face of the earth.' He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with his disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of his disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And he cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit" (Irenaeus, AH 5.33.1).

    The second indication is the quotation from Papias, which concerns the productivity of both wine and wheat flour -- both being the sacraments of the Eucharist, and mentioned in the same order as v. 17-19 of Luke 22. Also, there is a close parallel in Victorinus (Commentary on Revelation 21.6) who likewise alludes to Matthew 26:29. I don't know if the concept in the gospels at all draws on chiliast eschatology, but there appears to have been a more literal interpretation of the vow -- in the sense of waiting until the "fruit of vine" of the new kingdom appears, at which time the "inheritance of the earth" has been renewed.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    I have already suggested in earlier posts that the Great Commission, attested in Matthew and Pseudo-Mark as given during the post-resurrection appearances, had an original context in (oral) tradition within the Last Supper -- with the wine and bread symbolism originally referring to vineyard that Jesus entrusts to his disciples in Mark 12:1-2, Matthew 21:33-46, and Luke 20:9-19 (a parable placed prior to the Last Supper in the Markan Jerusalem narrative) and the teaching that is distributed (like broken bread) to those who will receive it throughout the known world. This suggestion has the support of the Eucharist formulae in the Didache and the symbolism of bread and grain in the synoptics. This would be the meaning of the Eucharist presumably in Syrian Jewish-Christian communities (such as represented by Q and the Gospel of Thomas) that took little note of Jesus' death and resurrection, as opposed to Mark and Paul where these events themselves represented the gospel to be proclaimed.

    I remember the conversation and agree it has merit.

    With this in view, it is interesting that the Gospel of the Hebrews places a parallel of Luke 22:16, 18 (i.e. spoken within the Last Supper) in a post-resurrection appearance. Might this be a fragment of an older "commission" tradition?

    The formula of "break, bless and distribute" is an interesting parallel. Some have seen in this and other correspondencies the posssibility that Luke had GHebrews (or comon source) as source material. Seeing connection between the Commision and the GHebrews James vow because both are post-supper settings seems a bit tenuous. I understand you were simply noting the fact not asserting anything.

    It's an interesting idea that the vow was originally placed on the lips of James the Just, and subsequently transferred to Jesus. If this was the case, I would think it would be in a tradition that antedates our extant gospels. The practice of fasting, moreover, was rejected by the Pauline Christians but practiced by Ebionites and other Jewish-Christians (cf. Didache, Matthew's Q Sermon), so the conversion of a fasting vow into something different would also fit the gospels that emerged among Gentile converts.

    I agree we are likely dealing with oral traditions. Yet Luke may have some literary source other than Mark for his additional material.

    But within the context of Mark and Luke, I can see how the declaration works if the symbolism works in the terms described above. My rough interpretation is that Jesus, in conferring on his disciples a "kingdom" (cf. Luke 22:29), was conferring on them his vineyard, his seed to be sown, and the "bread" to be distributed to those who will make up the new community in the kingdom. This is a similar concept of Jesus transferring his halakic authority to his apostles in Matthew 18:18. In short, he was handing over his "bread and wine" to them, as he was handing his kingdom over to them, so that they would be the ones to pass on the teaching to others. And, indeed, this passage is the very end of Jesus' teaching in the synoptics. The Passion narrative commences at 22:39, and from there onwards Jesus is presented no longer as a wisdom teacher but as the suffering servant from Deutero-Isaiah. So, in a real sense, Jesus "fasts" from his role as rabbi, and will not again share in his disciples' kingdom until he returns and brings them to the table of the Father (Luke 22:30; cf. Matthew 19:28). However, this sense was altered when the Pauline body-consumption motif was incorporated into the gospels (in the case of Luke, verbatim wording from 1 Corinthians).

    Intersting possibilty for early Mark or UrMark. Yet the vow to not eat or drink in a meal setting creates tension. Why would Mark have preserved the wording that precludes his drinking the wine that he has just drunk and is about to drink? The odd choice of words that has Jesus 'eating' the teaching rather than distributing it also seems to work against your hypothesis. Of course we could assume metaphor, but why do it when a literal meaning seems natural in a vow of fasting?

    Well, there is another angle to this that cannot be ignored. The statement in Luke 22:30 (re the apostles eating and drinking "at my table in my kingdom," as they sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel") is strikingly reminiscent of statements in Papias of Hierapolis and Irenaeus of Lyons on the "enjoyment of food" in the earthly millenial kingdom, during which time "the Lord will reign in the flesh with the saints" (cf. Eusebius, HE 3.39.11-13; Jerome, Famous Men 18; Maximus the Confessor, Scholia in Dionysii 7.2). Similarly, Dionysius of Alexandria described Cerinthus' chiliasm as expecting an "earthly" kingdom of Christ with carnal "delights of the belly and of sexual passion, with eating and drinking and marrying" as well as with "festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims" (HE 3.28.4-5). There is especially the famous grotesque fragment of Papias (cited in Irenaeus, AH 5.33.3-4), which expands a quotation from 2 Baruch 29:5-6 into an extended discussion between Jesus and his apostles on the renewal of creation in the millenium. Since Papias gave interpretations and illustrative stories to particular oracles of Jesus, the most likely "oracle" at the basis of this fragment in Papias is Matthew 26:27-29/Luke 22:16-18. The main evidence for this is the fact that Irenaeus cited the story in the course of an exegesis of the same oracle:
    "For this reason, when about to undergo his sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after he had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: 'Drink all of it: this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.' Thus, then, he will himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [his] sons; as David says, 'He who hath renewed the face of the earth.' He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with his disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of his disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And he cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit" (Irenaeus, AH 5.33.1).

    The second indication is the quotation from Papias, which concerns the productivity of both wine and wheat flour -- both being the sacraments of the Eucharist, and mentioned in the same order as v. 17-19 of Luke 22. Also, there is a close parallel in Victorinus (Commentary on Revelation 21.6) who likewise alludes to Matthew 26:29. I don't know if the concept in the gospels at all draws on chiliast eschatology, but there appears to have been a more literal interpretation of the vow -- in the sense of waiting until the "fruit of vine" of the new kingdom appears, at which time the "inheritance of the earth" has been renewed.

    Yes the passage was difficult for later writers to assimilate. I agree that a physical literal renewal of Israel was the setting for the words in their original setting (vow to fast by Jesus or James until Jesus Kingdom was come, (meaning soon)), they carried that anachronistic meaning into the new placement, creating the debate about where the Kingdom was to be established.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Yet the vow to not eat or drink in a meal setting creates tension. Why would Mark have preserved the wording that precludes his drinking the wine that he has just drunk and is about to drink?

    PP, I'm not sure I quite understand your problem re: Mark, in which I read no vow "not to eat", just a vow "not to drink anymore" (sounds somewhat AA, in a way ):

    I will never again (ouketi ou mè) drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

    In Luke 14:18, the saying occurs before the "Eucharist" (I use this term regardless of interpretation). It follows another saying regarding not eating the Passover meal.

    I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

    Interestingly there is a counter echo (veggie version?) of this in the Gospel of the Ebionites (Epiphanius, Panarion, XXX, xxii, 4):

    Not that I have so eagerly desired to eat this Passover, that is, meat, with you.

    In none of the Synoptics does Jesus explicitly share in the Eucharist proper.

    Now I wonder if there might be a closer relation than you suggest between James (GHebrews) and and Paul's enemies in Acts 23. IOW, those "Jews" could well be Nazorean Jews from the party of James, i.e. Judeo-Christian (cf. the very awkward description of the Jerusalem "church" and the riot in the Temple, in Acts 21). In that case we could have another echo of the Nazorean practice of eschatological fasting.

    As to the general eschatological perspective, this also reminds of Mark 9:1//:

    Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

    (Cf. the "Son of Man" parallels in Matthew 16:28 and 10:23.)

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    PP, I'm not sure I quite understand your problem re: Mark, in which I read no vow "not to eat", just a vow "not to drink anymore" (sounds somewhat AA, in a way ):

    Narkissos, I understand Mark posssibly allows for that interpretation in that the expression is "no more drink...". Yet Luke does not easily lend itself to that but rather as you said it sounds like Jesus is abstaining from the meal. Yet the vow is still of interest as it implies an imminent physical Kingdom. The use of "fullfilled" in place of "abundantly provided" seems to be interpretive, suggesting some metaphoric spiritual secret meaning. The enemies of Paul in Acts may well have been the James gang. This would furthur suggest that the vow under discussion was literal.

    Leolaia..I was thinking about your suggestion of the vow meaning to cease teaching, it sort of follows the idea that "I have food of which you do not know, ....my food is to do the will of my father". I still see a literal vow however when I read it.

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