Two in bed

by peacefulpete 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    A recent thread asked about the rapture teaching and I got to thinking about Luke 17:34,35 and Matt 24:40,41. It is generally agreed this was sourced from Q. Notice that Luke and Matt place the section including, "two women will be grinding at the hand mill one will be taken along the other left" in completely different settings. Matt slips it in the mini-apocalypse from mark 13 while Luke separates it to another discussion and setting. Matt not only surrounds but interupts the Q section (including lightning and vultures and Noah reference) with Markan material (matt 24.29-35).

    Each author, as they read today, included a scenario ommitted by the other. (2 in bed in Luke , while 2 in field in Matt) ' The 'two in a field' sentence may have been added later to Luke as it appears in only half of the early manuscripts ( OR it may have been original to the text and sourced from Q like Matt's and edited out in favour of the "two lying in a bed" senario. If the "mill" and "field" scenarios are from Q, where did Luke get the added "bed" material?

    Some suggest the "2 in a bed" scenario was sourced from G Thomas 61:1 which reads:

    Jesus says: "Two will lie down there on one bed: one will die, the other will live." Salome says: "Who art thou, man; from whom hast thou that thou shouldst lie on my couch and eat at my table?" Jesus says to her: "I am he who has been brought into being by Him who is equal I have been given what belongs to my Father!"?"I am thy disciple!"

    Note that the commentary below suggests that even this phrase in G Thomas is the work of editorial ingenuity.

    Doresse writes: "The main part of this paragraph is taken from some apocryphal gospel (perhaps the Gospel of the Egyptians?). It centres on Salome's question to Jesus: 'Who art thou? Where have you come from, to sit on my couch and eat my table?' (the couch of course being the place where they reclined at table). Then, this reference to the couch probably led to the artificial addition at the beginning of the sentence, of the passage: 'Two will lie down on one bed . . .' The next step was an addition by the editor (another example of such a commentary introduced by the editor is found in 115): from the association of these two texts, he tried to bring out the idea that duality is the source of death and darkness, while unity - isolation, solitariness - leads to light and life. Thus the phrase: 'Because of that . . .' no doubt introduces the editor's comment: 'Because of those two sayings ("Two will lie down . . ." and "Salome says . . ."), I will give you the following teaching. . . .'" (The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics, p. 375)

    Funk and Hoover write of 61:1, "Live or die": "Most of the Fellows were of the opinion that the version in Thomas was older than the Q version because it is simpler. However, in its Thomean form it was probably a piece of common wisdom: death strikes when we least expect it and rather arbitrarily. Two on a couch probably refers to a dinner party or symposium - a place one is least likely to anticipate death. This context is confirmed by the remark of Salome in v. 2: 'Who are you, mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone.' Jesus is here represented as an intruder at a dinner party." (The Five Gospels, p. 507)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    This text is a good example of how material was assembled and adapted differently by the gospel authors. Thomas 61:1-6 is more elaborate than most dialogues in the book but contains no narrative contextual material aside from what is presumed in the passage itself. The Gospel of the Egyptians is btw known from only one passage (a dialogue between Jesus and Salome) quoted by Clement of Alexandria and thus is extremely difficult to assess in terms of its contents and literary sub-genre (one possible connection might be the use of the Gospel of the Egyptians by the modalists noted by Epiphanius Haer. 62:4 and Jesus describing his existence from the Undivided in Thomas 61:3).

    I agree that v. 3-6 contain much editorial commentary tho I am not sure if I concur with the analysis. Thomas 61:1 stands on its own and v. 2 does not presuppose it; similarly, v. 4 stands well on its own and v. 3 seems to interpret it (there are many logia about the Father giving "all things" to the Son and v. 3 seems to work the concept into a distinct dualistic interpretation; compare Matthew 11:25-27, Luke 10:22, John 3:35, 13:3). My amateur guess is that 61:1 and 6:4 are the two independent kernals of tradition and the first layer of interpretation is the expansion of the latter into 6:3-4 (e.g. "I am he who exists from the Undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father"). Then it was placed into a Salome dialogic frame which interprets the logion about having things of the Father as relating to discipleship (adding v. 2 and 5). Then this dialogue is placed next to the independent logion of 61:1 since both share a mention of a bed/couch as well as a notion of duality vs. unity. Finally, v. 6 was added but I'm not sure if this is an interpretation of the combined v. 1-5 or simply the dialogue of v. 2-5.

    I've compared below Thomas 61:1 (cf. text in Berliner Arbeitskreis) with its Lukan equivalent:

    Luke 17:35: taute te nukti esontai duo epi klines mias, ho heis paralemphthesetai, kai ho heteros aphethesetai.
    Thomas 61:1: duo anapausontai epi klines, ho heis apothaneitai, ho heis zesetai.

    The Lukan version seems more abstract to me....referring to simply being in the bed rather than an activity (cf. Thomas' anapausontai "resting") and referring to the more laconic circumstances of "being taken" and "being left" as opposed to the more concrete apothaneitai "will die" and zesatai "will live" of the Thomas text. The Thomasan version is also much more oral....evidencing greater parallelism and simplicity of form (such as the duplicate ho heis construction without Luke's addition of kai "and," the use of heis in both clauses instead of the assymetric heteros "other," etc.). Although the wording of Luke 17:35 is laconic and vulnerable to interpretation informed by "rapture" eschatology and texts such as 1 Thessalonians, the Lukan author's commentary in v. 32-33 shows that the author shared the Thomasan understanding of the verse: "Remember Lot's wife. Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it". That is, the object of the passage is death. And both the Matthean and Lukan "taken ... left" logia closely follow a comparison between the situation and the "days of Noah," indicating an equivalence between the two on the part of the two writers that undermines any "rapture" interpretation. That is, just like the Flood that was sent to "take" all the wicked away, "leaving" behind Noah and his family, so it would be that the Son of Man would similarly take all the wicked in death.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Regardless of the story changing a bit......weren't they ALL speaking of the same event, and talking "along the same line of thought".? Did they ALL believe in the EVENT, and does it matter whether they agreed how it would take place? Since they all believed in the same event being discussed, they must have had a single source who this came from eh?

    Gumby

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I like the proposal Leolaia, that 'taken' in context here means death not salvation. (WT being influenced by rapture spin interprets the word "left" as death and 'taken' as saved, or chosen depending upon which magazine you read) Then Luke would then be saying in verse 37 ("Where Lord? Where corpse is vultures gather" again from Q) not 'where' are they taken to but where to look for Jesus' return (22-24).

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Just an added comment about the WT's confusing take of these words. Because they alternate application of these verses between 1918 (far sighted 'eagles' discerning invisible return, being taken into covenant relationship whereas Christendom is abandoned) and armagedon ((mid 90's, being taken means being saved and left ('abandoned' works better for this) means being killed) noone ever touches these verses with a 10 ft pole.

    Laughably the invisible return spin directly contradicts the very point being made that everyone would be able to see the return just as everyone can see 'lightning' and 'vultures' circling a corpse from a great distance.

  • candidlynuts
    candidlynuts

    thanks pete.. your post gave me more to think on ( not sure if thats a good thing lol)

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Candidly..We all had to sort these things out for ourselves as well. Peace of mind came for me only when I did this type of study. I'm sure I speak for Leolaia when I say your welcome, if anything we post is valuable.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Is it only me, or did anyone else thing "...and the little one said, roll over, roll over...", when they read the thread title?
    LOL

    On a more serious note I'm with you, on this one, Pete. I think the WTS have got this one back to front, as usual. I'll give them nine out of ten for consistency.

  • ballistic
    ballistic
    Is it only me, or did anyone else thing "...and the little one said, roll over, roll over...", when they read the thread title?
    LOL

    No - I thought it was something illegal in this country, then I realised I've been single for far too long!

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