I recommend to you Phoe'be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen'chreae. Romans 16:1
i thought it was only men who are ministers? and is there a role for women in the congregations other than pioneer?
Women ministers
by Pleasuredome 32 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Buster
Rich, this is an area where I haven't found any explanations that seem reasonable to me. In this particlar letter, Paul is asking the church to accept this woman. I think most commentary would say she is a minister in the sense of charity and hospitality - not with a formal preaching job. I have read some that says just that.
But, inspite of what I've read, bible and bible commentary, it makes no sense to me that women would be relegated to a secondary role in the Christian church. It seems more liklely to me that women's roles in the first century church were constricted mostly by the mores of the times, and less by some divinely prescribed hierarchy. I think Paul was instructing the faithful to "be all things to all people" a.k.a. 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do' I feel firmly that if I spent the time looking into it, that I would find some basis for this belief.
Has anyone else here done any such research?
- Buster
(of the 'Femanist For A Day' class)
(Rich: now that you've been away for a while - do you miss any part of it?)
Edited by - buster on 2 December 2002 19:28:38
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Pleasuredome
hi buster
no mate, not one little bit. although i do still care about those in my cong, but when i realise they have more loyalty to the org than anyone else in the cong, then i have to be realistic in that they aint true friends.
its just so great not to have the hassle of it all. no more: wasted petrol, wear and tare on the car; wearing shirt and ties; getting a numb bum; reading a watchtower; singing crap songs; lectures on loyalty; answering redundent questions etc.
enjoying being out of a prison without bars!
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onacruse
According to Barnes Commentary:
Which is a servant. Greek, "Who is a deaconess." It is clear, from the New Testament, that there was an order of women in the church known as deaconesses, Reference is made to a class of females whose duty it was to teach other females, and to take the general superintendence of that part of the church, in various places in the New Testament; and their existence is expressly affirmed in early ecclesiastical history. They appear to have been commonly aged and experienced widows, sustaining a fair reputation, and fitted to guide and instruct those who were young and inexperienced. Comp. #1Ti 5:3,9-11 Tit 2:4. The Apostolical Constitutions, Book iii., say, "Ordain a deaconess who is faithful and holy, for the ministries toward the women." Pliny, in his celebrated letter to Trajan, says, when speaking of the efforts which he made to obtain information respecting the opinions and practices of Christians, "I deemed it necessary to put two maid-servants who are called ministrae [that is, deaconesses] to the torture, in order to ascertain what is the truth." The reasons of their appointment among the Gentiles were these:
(1.) The females were usually separate from the men. They were kept secluded, for the most part, and not permitted to mingle in society with men, as is the custom now.
(2.) It became necessary, therefore, to appoint aged and experienced females to instruct the young, to visit the sick, to provide for them, and to perform for them the services which male deacons performed for the whole church. It is evident, however, that they were confined to these offices, and that they were never regarded as an order of ministers, or suffered to preach to congregations, #1Ti 2:12; #1Co 14:34.
According to editorial footnote on Calvin's Commentaries:
"Ministra," diakonov minister, or servant, or deaconess, one who ministers. Origen and Chrysostom considered her to be a deaconess, but the word does not necessarily prove this; for it is used often to designate generally one who does service and contributes to the help and assistance of others. She was evidently a person of wealth and influence, and was no doubt a great support and help to the Cenchrean Church. Those spoken of by Paul in #1Ti 5:10 and # Ti 2:3, were widows and aged, and they are not called ai diakonoi, deaconesses. There arose, as it appears, an order of this kind in the early Church, and Grotius says that they were ordained by imposition of hands before the Laodicean Council, which forbade the practice. Their office was, according to Bingham and Suicer, referred to by Schleusner, to baptize women, to teach female catechumens, to visit the sick, and to perform other inferior offices in the Church. But this was the state of things after the apostolic times, and there is no reason to believe that Phoebe was of this order. She was evidently a great helper of the Christian cause, as some other women also are mentioned in this chapter, and she had been the helper of many, (# Ro 16:2,), and not of one Church, and also of Paul himself; and from what is said in # Ro 16:2, it appears probable that she was a woman carrying on some business or traffic, and that she went to Rome partly at least on this account. Ed.
According to Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary:
That in the earliest churches there were deaconesses, to attend to the wants of the female members, there is no good reason to doubt. So early at least as the reign of Trajan, we learn from PLINYS celebrated letter to that emperorA.D. 110, or 111that they existed in the Eastern churches. Indeed, from the relation in which the sexes then stood to each other, something of this sort would seem to have been a necessity. Modern attempts, however, to revive this office have seldom found favor; either from the altered state of society, or the abuse of the office, or both.
According to Matthew Henry's Commentary:
As a servant to the church at Cenchrea: diakonon, a servant by office, a stated servant, not to preach the word (that was forbidden to women), but in acts of charity and hospitality. Some think she was one of the widows that ministered to the sick and were taken into the churchs number, #1Ti 5:9.
According to Robertson's NT Word Pictures:
Who is a servant of the church (ousan diakonon thv ekklhsiav). The etymology of diakonov we have had repeatedly. The only question here is whether it is used in a general sense or in a technical sense as in # Php 1:1; #1Ti 3:8-13. In favour of the technical sense of "deacon" or "deaconess" is the addition of "thv ekklhsiav" (of the church). In some sense Phoebe was a servant or minister of the church in Cenchreae. Besides, right in the midst of the discussion in #1Ti 3:8-13 Paul has a discussion of gunaikav (verse #11) either as women as deaconesses or as the wives of deacons (less likely though possible). The Apostolic Constitutions has numerous allusions to deaconesses. The strict separation of the sexes made something like deaconesses necessary for baptism, visiting the women, etc. Cenchreae, as the eastern port of Corinth, called for much service of this kind. Whether the deaconesses were a separate organization on a par with the deacons we do not know nor whether they were the widows alluded to in #1Ti 5:9.
Seems to me that the preponderance of historical evidence indicates that women WERE officially appointed as servants in the Christian congregation, even if their specific responsibilities differed somewhat from the male diakonoi.
Craig
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Buster
I agree that it makes no sense for women to relegated to secondary roles in the Christian Church. The problem is that,when the new testament was written, women were in subserviant roles by virtue of customs and culture. Although there were exceptions, women were generally not as well educated as the men were. The apostle Paul seems very much bound by customs and culture in that regard as evidenced by his advice concerning women in various letters to the churches. Why the fundamentalist churches today feel bound by the culture of 2000 years ago has always mystified me. Some of the most successful churches that I know of are (or were) led by women. Paul was not above using women when it suited him. When he could no longer witness in the synagouges, he would witness to the women gathered at the community well.
Much of the "fundy" attitude toward women is based on Paul's letters to the Corinthians. Corinth, however, was a special situation in which many of the recent converts were from Roman religion in which women took a leading role and which involved temple prostitution and esoteric worship which included speaking in tounges. The women spoke and a male priest interpreted. Some of those practices had crept into the Corinthian church. The main activity in Corinth was the entertainment of sailors while their ships were being hauled over the narrow part of Greece. It was indeed the San Diego of its day. Paul was very much aware of the situation in Corinth and knew that he had his work cut out for him.
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hippikon
You have lost the sense of this scripture in the translation. It should read
"For a good time in Cen'chreae call phoebe"
Edited by - hippikon on 3 December 2002 6:21:37
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Sangdigger
Good post Craig!
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JT
You have lost the sense of this scripture in the translation. It should read
"For a good time in Cen'chreae call phoebe"
good point, Paul was letting the boys know , hey when you are in town this is the chick to check out as he said I recommend it, he must have been talking from experience the way the New Light Translation indicates in the footnotes-
yep Paul was "Tapping" it out
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mouthy
If you read the book "Who Said Women Cant Teach" by Charles Trombley.You will find a very interesting answewr to this topic.
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JosephAlward
In his address to the Corinthians, and in his letter to Timothy, Paul makes it clear that women are not allowed to teach men, and it is the man who is to do the instructing:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach [didaskein], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-12)
In other words, Paul is saying, "I'd never let a woman teach man, for it was the woman, not the man, who led us all into a state of sin." Paul emphasizes in his Corinthians letter that women are not allowed to teach men--or to have any kind of authority of men, and states in his Timothy letter that the reason for this is that Adam was first, and since he was not deceived, he is the one who should have authority. Clearly, Paul didn't want women to teach men anywhere, any time; that's just as perfectly plain as any Christian doctrine can be. One can either believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that Paul speaks for God, and not have women be ministers in the church, or one can have have women as ministers and not believe that the Bible is the word of God, but one cannot have both.
Edited by - JosephAlward on 4 December 2002 18:5:42