If anyone is interested, I have a question about Baptism.
I know that in the Bible Jesus told his disciples to go and gather up all people
who were willing to listen and make disciples of them Baptizing them etc..etc..etc..
So basically there would be a kinda pyramid effect taking place from that moment
in time and on until the end of this system of things. Right? Bible Students then and now Jehovahs Witnesses have only been present for a little more than a century and I know that if one
were to ask a Witness, the only baptism that would be relevant would be one valid only with-in the society. I can’t find any scripture specifying exactly what kind of Baptism is relevant other than a Baptism in the name of the Father The Son and the Holy Sprit. I can’t find anything in reference to exactly who is supposed to perform the Baptism other than Jesus’ disciples.
I do believe that a person who wishes to be in Jehovah’s favor must get Baptized, But I have always had a problem with the idea that it has to be done only at a convention of witnesses and only under their rules and regulations. I have struggled with that, well somewhat, for years and years and for that reason I never was baptized. Some would say its because I have no faith but I disagree, I have a lot of faith but it just has never been
On display for anyone to dissect. I would really like to hear some opinions if anyone has any.
Sorry but U can't be baptized!
by plmkrzy 8 Replies latest watchtower bible
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plmkrzy
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badwillie
You're absolutely right. Did you know Fred Franz was never baptized as a JW? Somewhere in the WT literature there is a quote from him saying that he viewed his first baptism a a Presbyterian as perfectly valid.
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Erich
plmkrzy.
I got baptized in 1984 (old rite; no devotion to the rules of WTS).
I do have same embarrassing thoughts as you too.
It's because the WTS claim ancient bible people like Abraham, Moses, David or Salomo as JW; but, how could they be - if not have been baptized under the rules and regulations of the WTS ?! -
cynicus
... But I have always had a problem with the idea that it has to be done only at a convention of witnesses and only under their rules and regulations.
The good thing about conventions is that there are no rules. Sit on the front row on Saturday, rise, yes, yes, and take the plunge. No one will or can stop you. I've seen it happen.
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Every absurdity has a champion to defend it. -
willy_think
Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).
Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).
This power was understood as coming from God: "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18). Indeed, confirms Paul, "So we are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).
Some say that any power given to the apostles died with them. Not so. Some powers must have, such as the ability to write Scripture. But the powers necessary to maintain the Church as a living, spiritual society had to be passed down from generation to generation. If they ceased, the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction. Christ ordered the apostles to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." It would take much time. And he promised them assistance: "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matt. 28:19–20).
what did the early christians say concerning baptism?
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’
(Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’
(Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Testimonies Concerning the Jews
"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Athanasius
"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).
Basil the Great
"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387])."You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
The Great and Powerful Oz:
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
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Thomas Poole
When one is baptised, they are baptised into the Body Of Christ, NOT into an organization or a denomination.
Baptism by the WT, I believe to be into the WT, not into the Body Of Christ, whom the WT rejects.
I believe a WT baptism to be a false baptism, even though the intent is well meaning. How can someone be baptised by a false prophet in the name of God, in the name of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28:19 says, "...in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The WT knows not even the relationship one has with Christ. They ursurp one's relationship they might have with Christ.
After I left the WT and realized through this cult that I had rejected the Body Of Christ, I asked for Gods forgiveness and received it. I forgave myself too. -
Flip
After I left the WT and realized through this cult that I had rejected the Body Of Christ, I asked for Gods forgiveness and received it. I forgave myself too.
Same thing happened to me, only…once I realized I didn’t require a God’s forgiveness, I left the WT cult and forgave my Jehovah’s Witness father for forcing me to reject my consciousness.
Flip
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Justin
plmkrzy,
I would like to attempt to tie together some of the bits of information you have already received on baptism. I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, or what you should do about the situation.
Historically, there are two Christian views on baptism. One is the sacramental view, and willy-think did a very good job of quoting from the early Church Fathers to expound this view. It really is the older view. It is the belief that the gift of the Holy Spirit, given through baptism, imparts to one God's grace (which is here conceived as an actual power). Of course, if the Spirit is transmitted in such a physical way, then this must occur within a succession of persons who are authorized to perform the baptismal rite. This view of baptism as a sacrament is maintained by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, as they claim to have a succession going all the way back to the apostles who were authorized by Christ to perform baptisms.
The second historical view comes to us through the Protestant Reformation. Protestantism claims that our relationship to God through Jesus Christ is initiated through our faith in Jesus, not through any physical action performed upon us by a priest or minister. This creates a need for another explanation for baptism, and it is this: That baptism, being a picture of death and resurrection (if performed by immersion), merely symbolizes something that has already occurred in the life of the believer.
Where does the Watchtower Society fit into this picture? The fact is that Charles Russell inherited his understanding of baptism from Protestantism, so that JWs still claim that it is a symbol of dedication. Russell thought that he was engaged in "harvest work" - that people in the churches who were already anointed Christians were being called out of "Babylon" to associate with the Bible Students. If these people were already "consecrated" or dedicated to God, their baptisms were valid and there was no need for them to be rebaptized. Fred Franz came into the movement at the time when this understanding was still current, and as badwillie has told us, was not rebaptized.
After Russell's death, Rutherford began emphasizing that JW's were exclusively "God's organization." They were no longer a movement or a loose association, but a concrete organization that competed with the churches. But even Rutherford, toward the close of his life, wrote a book entitled "Children" in which he tells the fictional story of a young couple who learn "the truth" and are baptized by one of their non-JW fathers! So it remained for the Knorr-Franz team to set a policy of not accepting outside baptisms (and when this occurred I don't know, maybe someone else does). The Society has never explained just when outside baptisms became invalid, but if they had to give an explanation I wouln't be surprised if they said the cutoff date was 1919, because that's when they think that Babylon the Great fell.
By refusing to accept non-JW baptisms today, the WT is in effect making baptism a sacrament (that is, the view that the Spirit is only conveyed through a certain physical channel) even though it claims to hold a symbolic view of baptism. If baptism is merely a symbol, it does not matter who performs it as long as the one being baptized has undergone a change of heart. Furthermore, the Society has no authority to perform sacramental baptisms because it cannot trace its succession back to the apostles. To have sacramental baptism, we need more than just a few "wheat" scattered among the "weeds" for the past 1,900 years!
I hope this explains how the WT got into the ridiculous position it is in.
Justin
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puzzled
Justin
It has been a long time since I read from this thread. Thanks for your coments I do appreciate your opinion. You have studied WTBTS doctrins for a long time?
It did always seem to me that a proper baptizim had to be in the same manor as Jesus. But on the other hand I don't see how that could be physically possible in our time. Not to mention that JWs don't exactly go down to the river. All of the baptizims I've been to were always either in a big DOBoy pool along side the stadium or inside in a smaller doboy pool. I remember once watching a friend get baptized her elbow stuck up out of the water, she had to get a re-do. I thought that was rather funny. I never gave it any thought before that but they had to make sure that her entire body was completely under water. I don't know if that was the general rule or if it was just something they decided was nessesary to be on the safe side.
No matter. I think it's either in your heart or it's not. I know to many who are baptized and couldn't begin to tell you why because in the Christanity department they're behavior and attitudes are less then second to my pit bull. I can't believe that thats perfectly alright as long as they took a dip in water in front of 10,000 or so witnesses.Oh by the way Welcome to the board.
plmkrzySWM50
a friend of plmkrzy